To think DD should be allowed to go on DofE expedition?

[Passthedamncoffee]

DD is currently in year 10 and is doing her DofE silver award. She has been having some issues with anxiety and depression, and recently had to go to hospital because of self harm.

Yesterday the school said that she’d be fine to participate in the expedition, however today they have said they would strongly recommend she doesn’t participate. This has been rather upsetting to my DD as she has been looking forward to the expedition (next week) and has been working hard to ensure she could complete the award.

FWIW, all medication etc wouldn’t be on her (instead with the leaders), DD had a practice expedition in March, and while she did struggle a bit overall she had a good time, and wants to go again. AIBU to think DD should be allowed to go on the expedition?

@M1Mountain I'm not a clinician and I'm not interested in playing medical condition top trumps so I won't comment on that. Same principle though. If the clinicians ok it and the adjustments required are reasonable, that's the end of the story. We have no idea about this girl's current mental state or what adjustments she might need so none of us can really comment beyond the facts.

I’m sorry but they’re completlt different scenarios. Diabetes is easily managed, checked and children are trained to manage it themselves. Mental illness with self harming hospitalisation nor so much, particularly when she struggled on the last expedition. We are talking about children who should never be given that level of responsibility.Diabetes only affects one child and that child can’t go far, self harming mental illness is completely different. I wouldn’t want my child given that level of responsibility when they already have to get themselves through a gruelling expedience.

I think it's a bit blase to say diabetes is easily managed btw.

But it is. Children a lot younger than 15 are trained to manage it, check levels etc. If a child had recently gone to hospital with it though I’m not sure it would be fair on the others to give them that level of responsibility.

@M1Mountain I think your responses only reinforce why it should be up to the medical professionals. D of E is meant to be challenging and have a positive impact on a young person's development. If that young person is deemed safe to participate (even if with some adjustments), they should be allowed to. If the clinicians think it will be too much, that's a different story. We don't know what the answer is in this scenario unless I've missed a post. Additionally, most parents don't want to expose their child to a high degree of risk, so if the parent and the clinic think it's ok, then that should be supported.

That’s a call for clinicians not school teacher .... In school based circumstances yes but not for optional extra curricular activities!

In this kind of situation you’re asking them to take responsibility for a child, they aren’t obligated to, unless every other child in her class is doing it or it’s a mandatory aspect of her eductation, which DofE is not!

Some people neee to get very clear on what can and cannot be demanded of school teachers, if this teen injured herself, or others on this trip it would come back on the teachers so they are perfectly within their rights to opt out of taking responsibility for her!!!

It is also up to the other children and their parents. I wouldn’t want my child to take part with a recently hospitalised child who has been self harming and who struggled on the last expedition. Aside from anything it costs £100 and I’d want my child to be focus on getting through the himself. Supporting other kids struggling with heavy kit and exhaustion or injury, passing glucose to a pre hypo diabetic if needs be ok. Supporting the above sorry but no.

@Spiceupyourlife - that's not true. Extracurricular activities are covered by the Supporting Children With Medical Conditions statutory guidance and various other bits of legislation.

An individual teacher is able to opt out of administering medication in which case another volunteer must be found. That's not the same as opting out of a duty of care which every teacher has.

You need to be very, very clear about understanding the responsibilities of the school before spouting this stuff on mumsnet (or before excluding a child from an activity because you don't fancy the sound of their condition).

worried who must find the volunteer to administer the medication?

They are supposed to be unaccompanied. And when a child threatens to harm herself and to leave what are the children she is enduring the expedition with supposed to do whilst waiting for an adult to find them? Utterly unfair to put kids in that position.

@TitianaTitsling - the school.

But there is no adult to administer medication on a DoE. Also to be taken into consideration is can the child cope in an emergency. Occasionally things can go wrong and all the participants need to be able to cope with this.

@M1Mountain "They are supposed to be unaccompanied." There is a form that can be completed to allow adjustments for these sorts of scenarios. But again, it's up to the clinician to a) sign the young person off as fit to participate b) sign the young person off with adjustments to mitigate any risks or c) deem the young person unfit to participate at the current time.

@sweeneytoddsrazor "But there is no adult to administer medication on a DoE." - yes, that was a more general point about the duties of schools with regard to extra curricular activities.

So the person filling the form is ultimately responsible. I’m guessing other parents are informed on the risk assessment.

D of E allows for closer supervision where there are additional needs "Increased adult supervision when needed is permissible, for example a ‘buddy’ with the group at all times or shadowing the group from distance." www.dofe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/20_conditions_-_variations_guidelines_Additional_needs.pdf I have no idea if this would apply in this circumstance or whether the OP's DD should be attempting this. Just saying that D of E does allow for variation to accommodate difference.

As a dofe supervisor I would be apprehensive about taking someone with a recent history of self harm. With knives and stoves being part of the kit there is ample opportunity and limited supervision for anything to happen. At silver staff may not even be at the same campsite overnight. If it is a fair distance away and she has issues with anxiety are you available to pick her up? And who would calm her in this situation? Very few teachers have mental health first aid qualifications, and would be trying to cope as best as they can.

I’d want a full conversation with parents and a plan of action. To be honest I would also want the parents to sign something saying they understand how dofe is supervised.

I know my school would struggle to make adaptations for this as we are frequently down at the bare bones of staff as it’s volunteer lead

The sudden change of view seems odd. I supervise DofE expeditions and haven’t refused participation on that basis. Self-harm can happen anywhere - probably less likely on and expedition than during the school day in some ways
Whilst groups are walking by themselves, supervision is often closer than they realise as well as adjustments able to be made.

With the change of decision could it be that other group members have spoken up?
I'd not want my teenager to have this responsibility and would want to know how they planned to protect my child.

But surely the issue here is that this girl has recently been hospitalised due to anxiety and deliberate self harm (so presumably not a minor incident)? In addition, she struggled with the last expedition- I would presume that this was before she was so unwell she required hospital treatment. So she struggled then- but now her anxiety and mental health have deteriorated, so it is possible it may be even more difficult for her now. When you add in that on the silver D of E expeditions they spend long periods without adult supervision and no access to a mobile phone etc, I think it is very easy to see why the school would have misgivings in those circumstances. I think anyone saying it is straightforward situation is being deliberately obtuse.

PP’s have posted about the school bring legally bound to make reasonable adjustments. But I don’t know what “adjustments” could be made to make this safer for everyone concerned. The whole purpose means constant adult supervision isn’t possible, nor is having a phone. Instead you want DD or, more likely, her peers to be responsible for assessing the situation and knowing what to do if things go wrong. I would be extremely unhappy if my DD were put in that situation at that age. The school have a duty of care to all DC, not just OP’s.

If the hospitalisation had been some time ago, it would be a different matter- it’s the fact it was so recent that gives rise to the issue.

I can just imagine the questions asked of the responsible teachers/volunteers if things went wrong- “why did you take a young teen who was suffering from mental health issues, to the point of recently requiring hospitalisation due to self-harm on this expedition? Especially as you knew there would be few opportunities for you to check and that she had previously struggled on an expedition. I think they’d be heavily criticised.

Around a quarter of 14 year olds have self harmed in the past year, and mental health issues (particularly transient ones) are incredibly common amongst teenagers. So perhaps anyone who doesn't want their child to be part of a D of E team with someone who has experienced those things should discourage their own child from participating. Better that than the risk of further damaging a young person by getting together to get them to be excluded.

For illness to be treated like disability (given special legal protected status) the illness must cause impairments that last or are expected to last at least 12months. It's not clear OP's DD meets the 12month rule. Otherwise I don't think being ill gives you special protected legal status at all. So the whole adaptations argument would not apply.

Against that school also has a pastoral care duty. To both OP's DD & the other kids.

I wonder if OP will come back.

Anxiety & depression are pretty ordinary for teens, true. But are Hospital visits for SH very common?

"I think they’d be heavily criticised." That's why they should be getting advice from the medical professional (who may say it is too risky for the vulnerable young person at this point).

Funnily enough a lot of people I know use getting outdoors to treat anxiety, depression and other mental health issues. Maybe see if you can get some form of consent from her counsellor etc?