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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think DD should be allowed to go on DofE expedition?

227 replies

Passthedamncoffee · 21/06/2019 22:15

DD is currently in year 10 and is doing her DofE silver award. She has been having some issues with anxiety and depression, and recently had to go to hospital because of self harm.

Yesterday the school said that she’d be fine to participate in the expedition, however today they have said they would strongly recommend she doesn’t participate. This has been rather upsetting to my DD as she has been looking forward to the expedition (next week) and has been working hard to ensure she could complete the award.

FWIW, all medication etc wouldn’t be on her (instead with the leaders), DD had a practice expedition in March, and while she did struggle a bit overall she had a good time, and wants to go again. AIBU to think DD should be allowed to go on the expedition?

OP posts:
worriedaboutmygirl · 22/06/2019 22:43

What @OhTheRoses said.That's exactly how I read the OP.

Original poster
Passthedamncoffee · 22/06/2019 22:45

OhTheRoses DD was considering it hence the hospital visit. Also was admitted to see CAHMS

OP posts:
M1Mountain · 22/06/2019 22:47

Considering what?

OhTheRoses · 22/06/2019 22:49

@passthedamncoffee I hope you will let me know how your dd gets on and what happens.

Keep on doing what you are doing and supporting her. Hard times Flowers

worriedaboutmygirl · 22/06/2019 23:02

@Passthedamncoffee well done to you and your DD for accessing support. I hope this goes well for her, but as @ohtheroses says, booking her into another activity may well be the way to go if she isn’t able to attend.

ConfCall · 22/06/2019 23:18

I think that most 15y olds are capable of giving first aid, using epipens etc but supporting someone with serious MH issues is different. I think it’s too risky.

M1Mountain · 23/06/2019 06:47

I agree I also think kids under physical and mental pressure don’t always act with the most empathy.

LolaSmiles · 23/06/2019 07:30

What people need to realise is there is a duty of care for all students, including what is/isn't a reasonable expectation to place on the other kids.

Also, whether or not it's ran by a 3rd party or school will depend on the school. We run ours as a school because we have a team of appropriately qualified and experienced staff who do it voluntarily. Other schools contract it out (usually at higher costs to the pupils). It's very easy to say 'teachers aren't clinicians' and that's true. But we are also the ones putting our necks on the line and so with the information available we have every right to make the call for the risk assessment and the group of children in our care.

For example,
Child A carries an epipen and the group get enhanced first aid - reasonable
Child B has diabetes so in the event of a high/low the group are delayed whilst the child deals with it - reasonable
Child C - recently on crutches and has been doing extra walks with family to build strength again, but we'll apply for exemptions on elements of the kit so we can keep it on the bus - reasonable

But placing a child who has contemplated suicide and has self harmed and been in hospital with anxiety in a situation known to be challenging and experience shows that many students find elements of the expedition physically and mentally tiring, I'm not sure it is reasonable to insist that other children have that responsibility on them. Either it has to be declared to them and they do the walk knowing if something goes wrong out of signal they've got someone who might consider taking their life (hugely unreasonable weight on them) or don't tell them and should something happen then there's some 15 year olds panicking out of contact because they aren't trained in dealing with that.

Karigan195
There is a massive difference between using the outdoors to support mental health, going for a walk in the countryside etc and doing a 3 day expedition where you're carrying your own kit, 3 days worth of food, are out of phone signal range for part or lots of it, only seeing a member of staff 2 or 3 times a day.

OhTheRoses · 23/06/2019 07:36

Self harm is not always accompanied by suicidal ideation. Psychiatric assessment determines the risks.

I am pleased my dd's school was very supportive. The ignorance on this thread demonstrates perfectly why school teachers should have absolutely no role in identifying, supporting and signposting young people suffering with mh/self harm, as proposed by the Government.

WhiteDust · 23/06/2019 07:41

I am pleased my dd's school was very supportive. The ignorance on this thread demonstrates perfectly why school teachers should have absolutely no role in identifying, supporting and signposting young people suffering with mh/self harm, as proposed by the Government.

This is exactly what many of the teachers on this thread have said. They are unqualified to support OP's DD on this trip and would not feel happy taking her at this time.

OhTheRoses · 23/06/2019 07:46

WhiteDust (goodness what a user name).
That is precisely why the clinician and school need to work together in this instance. There has been much over dramatising on this thread and it is a worry that teachers know so little and readily adopt a stigmatising stance.

LolaSmiles · 23/06/2019 07:46

I am pleased my dd's school was very supportive. The ignorance on this thread demonstrates perfectly why school teachers should have absolutely no role in identifying, supporting and signposting young people suffering with mh/self harm, as proposed by the Government
It is precisely because we are not trained in the details of every mental health issue that many teachers would be uncomfortable placing a vulnerable child who has self harmed and has suicidal thoughts (think the OP alluded to that) on a 3 day expedition that is known to be bith physically and mentally taxing.

I totally agree that the government talking about pushing even more mental health into schools is a terrible idea. It's not a decision coming from teachers. It's a decision by a government who have slashed access to mental health services (schools are already providing mentors and counsellors for students who would have hit the bottom end of camhs thresholds) and are now seeking to cover up the damage they've done. Ultimately children with mental health issues need proper support from qualified professional specialists.

That however is separate to staff needing to do a risk assessment on a trip that they know the demands of where they have to consider the wellbeing and safety of all children who will be out of contact with staff and out of phone signal for a substantial period of time.

WhiteDust · 23/06/2019 07:52

WhiteDust (goodness what a user name).
Tennis. What were you thinking?

Yellowpolkadot · 23/06/2019 07:52

@OhTheRoses the school and clinician may be working together but the dofe lead (who will ultimately have responsibility) may not have been included in the sensitive process. It sounds as though they have been told too late to do anything about it. I have a full teaching load and head up dofe in my own time so would have limited time to speak with external agencies. We collect health information in a couple of months in advance and I call all at risk children's parents to discuss potential issues and put in place appropriate staff/student training. If this has only recently been shared with the dofe supervisor due to its sensitive nature I can understand why they may feel unprepared

WhiteDust · 23/06/2019 07:55

The ignorance on this thread demonstrates perfectly why school teachers should have absolutely no role in identifying, supporting and signposting young people suffering with mh/self harm, as proposed by the Government.

Follows immediately by:

That is precisely why the clinician and school need to work together in this instance. There has been much over dramatising on this thread and it is a worry that teachers know so little and readily adopt a stigmatising stance.

?????

stucknoue · 23/06/2019 08:05

From the schools point of view they have to be confident that they can protect her, they may well of taken advice from their insurers too. Flip it around the other way, a school takes a child on a difficult (for their age) expedition knowing they have recent self harm, young person does something stupid (runs off, self harm or worse) they are liable.

As we only have a glimpse of the situation from you we cannot say what the school should do but they need to put her health needs first.

likeridingabike · 23/06/2019 08:22

DD did her Silver recently, the consent form included me being able to sign for her to administer her own medication (if she was on any).

There were two adults with cars at checkpoints during the day and at the campsite overnight, they all took mobile phones but yes the signal was poor to non existent much of the time. So, they are left to navigate between checkpoints but there's still a reasonable level of adult supervision.

The group dd was in included two girls who were only able to carry limited kit (the rest went with a teacher), and I'm sure other health conditions I'm not aware of.

It's tough though, DD struggled physically and mentally but the kids rallied around and supported each other.

gatsby2019 · 23/06/2019 08:31

I don't think it's fair to expect the other children to support her, yes if there was an accident but something already known that's not their job

Chartreuser · 23/06/2019 08:46

Passthedamnciffee are the rest of the group aware of her condition and have they been taught basic mental health first aid? With any health condition the rest of the group need awareness and to be taught crisis management until adult help can be summoned

notmuchmoretogive · 23/06/2019 08:47

I wonder whether any other parents have expressed concern? It is quite something to ask other Year 10's to take responsibility for someone so vulnerable, unless you agree for a supporting adult to go? (Adult to ensure DD's safety rather than help group).

She's only year 10, lots of time for her to complete at a later date.

rookiemere · 23/06/2019 09:17

I come from the position of having some friends who are DOE leaders. It takes a good deal of personal time and means - as others have said - that they are responsible for the welfare of the participants.

If they have made a judgement call for whatever reason, I do feel you need to respect it. It sounds as if the Monday trip is a trial run for DD so I hope it goes well for her.

LolaSmiles · 23/06/2019 09:57

notmuchmoretogive
It's also entirely possible.

We've had students express concerns and frustrations to us regarding members of their groups who are risking the safety and wellbeing of the group. Whilst I'm not sure how the parents could have the information for the OP's situation, if it's common knowledge coming students then it wouldn t be unheard of for parents to express their reservations. Over my time doing DofE I've seen and heard parental concerns for much, much less.

RedHelenB · 23/06/2019 15:28

Honestly it isn't just a nice country walk. Supervision is minimal because the idea is that the children rely on themselves. I think most of my dds group felt tearful at times. One girl was scared stiff of cows, another tne they had a very narrow high crossing that some had to be helped over ( with heavy rucksacks on their backs) Both have completed gold but it isn't an easy challenge, it was never designed to be. Too many teenagers my dds know have taken their own lives, outside of their home. It really isn't a risk worth taking if there has been recent self harm.

DonkeyHohtay · 23/06/2019 15:45

There were lots of tears in DS's group too, and not just from the girls. It's tough.

user87382294757 · 23/06/2019 16:04

Tears? On the D of E? Really? It's really not that tough. We did it years ago in the Scottish borders, in grim weather, it is just walking up hills really. Not very dramatic. I wonder about kids today if they are in tears over a walk