To think DD should be allowed to go on DofE expedition?

[Passthedamncoffee]

DD is currently in year 10 and is doing her DofE silver award. She has been having some issues with anxiety and depression, and recently had to go to hospital because of self harm.

Yesterday the school said that she’d be fine to participate in the expedition, however today they have said they would strongly recommend she doesn’t participate. This has been rather upsetting to my DD as she has been looking forward to the expedition (next week) and has been working hard to ensure she could complete the award.

FWIW, all medication etc wouldn’t be on her (instead with the leaders), DD had a practice expedition in March, and while she did struggle a bit overall she had a good time, and wants to go again. AIBU to think DD should be allowed to go on the expedition?

There are ways of managing the risk sensibly.

When DS1 was similarly unwell, he went on a school trip to a different continent for 10 days. It was the sort of trip which was physically and emotionally challenging. The school asked for a recent (within last 3 weeks) letter from the consultant stating he was fit to take part, which his consultant was happy to provide.

DS1 and the trip leader made a plan of what DS1 would do if he felt an anxiety attack coming on or if his mood dropped below a certain level.

The trip boosted his confidence and had a hugely positive impact on him.

There are ways of managing the risk sensibly

There are, risk assessments, strategies in place to minimise risk, extra staff, more supervision. All of which is possible, or at least could be discussed.

They are the kind of reasonable adjustments I was talking about.

Donkeyhotay

at 13.04

Exactly.

It is not a supervised,catered,comfy bed at night after a warm shower trip. It is young people being challenged both physically and emotionally , expected to solve issues themselves.

I would suggest a meeting with school to discuss why the change of mind, what their concerns are, and what support could potentially be put in place. I would possibly also get the opinion of whoever is treating your daughter as well.

If having done that it is decided the risk is too great, you need to frame it to your daughter as “postponing until she is healthier” rather than “mean school stopping her going”. And try to do something special with her that weekend.

OP, it must be a tough call for all concerned.

Can you offer to go but remain behind the scenes with your own transport ? Then if she does self harm or need medical attention, you take charge rather than the leaders being loco parentis and decreasing their adult:child ratios.

Sockatoe - there are no "adult child ratios". Kids do the D of E expedition with minimal adult supervision. People checking in with them once or twice a day.

They are on their own.

There isn’t a ‘behind the scenes with your own transport’. They are walking from one checkpoint to another, often where there are no roads and no mobile signal.

There aren’t any adults with them. That’s part of the challenge.

I think a lot of people dont realise the very limited adult interaction on DofE or ten tors. Some of my children have done both. They are very tough and demanding. Medication is kept by the children, so you would have to trust them to take it at the required time. They have to be able to work as a team under some tough conditions. They have to help and support each other and rely on each other. So not only would the other team members need to support your DD they would have to be as certain as they can that were one of them to have an accident then your DD could step up and deal with it.

You've had some excellent advice on here and some downright ridiculous things said.
You have to be aware the the youngsters in the group won't necessarily see the adults until they get to the camp site at night. They school has to think of the welfare of ALL the youngsters doing this. Obviously we don't know your dd, or how 'stable' she is at the moment, etc., but if someone has ended up in hospital because of self harming due to anxiety, is it fair to put that responsibility on other 5 r olds, when the whole point of the expedition is that it is challenging, and therefore quite likely to trigger some anxiety ?

I think asking the other kids in the group to take responsibility for her is too big an ask I’m afraid.

It would be a big ask for a school trip with teachers constantly present let alone just other teens.

It’s for that reason one of mine hasn’t done the DofE. She probably could do it, but the chances of her having a bad fall are extremely high and it would be incredibly unfair to ask other kids (who look out for her day to day already) to take responsibility for getting help if she got injured or couldn’t manage.

The school have a duty of care to all of the children in the group.

Good grief, my typing today

Obviously 15 yr olds, not 5 yr olds.

They have an emergency phone. That's it, in terms of contact. Imagine the feelings of another teen having to phone for help and assist in the case of another self harming and their feelings also in that situation. It is not just about your daughter but about everyone.

The other thing to remember is that your dd has until she’s 24 to complete her DofE so it’s not now or never.

What do the medical professionals in charge of her care recommend? Do you genuinely feel she could keep herself safe for 2 nights / 3 days of walking/ canoeing? How would she feel if tensions run high in the group?

My children have completed bronze (both) and silver (one) and they are pretty much on their own the vast majority of the time - much more so then in the practice expedition. On one of my children’s bronze expedition one of the team had a fall resulting in a serious injury (a bit of a freak accident) it was very scary for all involved and summoning emergency help was not straightforward and involved them all having to work together whilst being stressed and scared about their friend (friend is thankfully recovering well). All the children I know of have had to manage their own medication and their team have been trained to know how to cope with problems (eg epipens / diabetes).

Your dd’s Safety and well-being would be down to her and the rest of her group. Are the rest of the group comfortable with that responsibility at 14/15?

If your dd doesn’t do the expedition next week she won’t have failed anything and if she is being strongly advised not to do it then it may be prudent to take that advice on board.

I hope your dd accesses the help she needs to make a good recovery

KittyMcKitty has put it very fairly and realistically I think.

I think Kitty has put the situation very well.

I went on Duke of Edinburgh when I was in year 10. Even though I enjoyed the other components of it (can't remember but think there were 3-4 other components like skills, hobbies and sports that made up the award) the expedition itself was horribly stressful and I was extremely physically fit at that point. Cold at night and everything very different. People getting lost as a group, arguing over map reading, high tension.

Your whole routine is thrown out. You're carrying heavy weights, away from home, walking to exhaustion, not with proper food often, away from any resources that often may help with MH issues, and in a group with people you may not get on with. Both me and my friend got trench foot, which was horrible. In our group also a few of us ended up going to a pub, and me and my friend also found a party in the woods and went to that, and I cringe to type this but accepted a lift off one of the adults to drop us back off at the camp. They were nice people, but, it was dangerous.

I actually hated the trip - some of the people in the group were bullies and I spent the whole time desperately wanting to go home. And couldn't. There was no option to go home aside from an emergency.

To me it would depend how recent the SH and MH difficulties were. How she feels she would handle it if problems arose and there is no one she can speak to. How does she handle things at home if she wants to SH? Will those coping strategies be taken away? What would happen if she did SH? What if there is no phone signal/zero mobile phone or internet access or usage?

I think it is stressful, more than people realise, both physically and emotionally. I'd want to do it when I was feeling robust and healthy. Otherwise, it will be miserable.

Assuming 'recently' means in the last 6 weeks, imho, terrible idea for OP's DD to plan to go.

It's not her fault. She's not being punished. She's ill. She wouldn't expect to do expedition if she had glandular fever or a broken ankle. Mental illness is no different. It's a disappointment but life is what happens when you made other plans. She's ill right now & needs to get better. The DoE is meant to push them mentally, emotionally & physically. Not appropriate for someone who is ill in one of those areas.

Scenario 1: your daughter still engages in self harm and does not cope well will pressure or stress. In this situation I’d be guided by school.

Scenario 2: Your daughter is very much better and her condition is well controlled by meds. There have been positive changes that have been sustained since she last self-harmed. You are concerned that not going will set ger back. In this situation I would question the decision and ask what additional safeguards can be put in place for her.

It’s not a school trip. They spend the best part of two days walking out of phone range and camp out overnight alone. There is no adult ratio as there are no adults.

My dd had someone with diabetes in her group. They didnt complete the expedition despite it being well planned. If there is even the slightest risk she will self harm then I as a parent would not want her to go and as a volunteer D of E supervisor would not want to run the risk. Can you imagine the headlines if something were to go wrong. She has until she is 25 to complete the expedition, much better to wait until she is more stable.

@00100001

From the DofE website:

'You can do a Bronze DofE programme once you're 14 or in the school year in which your peer group turn 14 to start a Bronze DofE programme – check with your DofE Leader. A Bronze DofE programme has 4 sections, Volunteering, Physical, Skills and Expedition.
Levels & timescales – The Duke of Edinburgh's Award
www.dofe.org/doing-your-dofe/levels-timescales/'

It really does come down to what the clinical team think. If they think she is well enough to go and she wants to, then reasonable adjustments need to be made to accommodate her. This might, for example, allowing her to have her phone to check in with you about her mood, an extra visit from the supporting staff during the evening, etc. The scheme is able to allow those adjustments.

With regard to type one diabetes, it's a terrible shame that the young person @RedHelenB knows wasn't able to complete her trip. Hoards of young people with diabetes are able to each year, although they may need some adjustments, such as having their phones, staff carrying extra spare supplies, etc. And of course it's about teamwork, so the group may need to, for example, wait for a young person to treat a low blood glucose (normally about 15 minutes) but that is part and parcel of the ethos of the award and is a really good learning experience for the other team members. (I'm guessing in @RedHelenB's case the young person was hypo for a prolonged amount of time or had a severe episode and of course a plan should be in place for a rare event like this - doesn't mean the young person shouldn't attempt the expedition in the first place).

Diabetes is far easier to deal with.

Yes they'd managed the practice expedition and all the measures had been applied it was just one of those things. Better safe than sorry and they could attempt it again, as can the ops dd.