To think DD should be allowed to go on DofE expedition?

[Passthedamncoffee]

DD is currently in year 10 and is doing her DofE silver award. She has been having some issues with anxiety and depression, and recently had to go to hospital because of self harm.

Yesterday the school said that she’d be fine to participate in the expedition, however today they have said they would strongly recommend she doesn’t participate. This has been rather upsetting to my DD as she has been looking forward to the expedition (next week) and has been working hard to ensure she could complete the award.

FWIW, all medication etc wouldn’t be on her (instead with the leaders), DD had a practice expedition in March, and while she did struggle a bit overall she had a good time, and wants to go again. AIBU to think DD should be allowed to go on the expedition?

@llijkk The supporting children with medical conditions statutory guidance still applies though?

@jacks11 there is a massive massive difference of excluding a child who has self harmed from social activities etc and a mentally and physically challenging event in isolation where a group of 14 year olds could end up being responsible or traumatised for somebody who is at risk of self harming.

OPs daughter is not the most important child here. The school are responsible for all of the minors on the expedition and also have to consider their liability.

A quarter haven’t been recently hospitalised. The child also struggled with the practise expedition. These are often less challenging than the real thing.

duties of schools with regard to extra curricular activities. But do teachers have a legal duty to attend and support extra curricular activities? It's unpaid and in their own time is it not? Can they be made to take on a task of looking after and administration of medication?

And the variations are for participants with additional needs (which I can't see a definition of on the D of E site) so they are part of the D of E guidelines rather than Equality Act stuff.

The other issue with changing the supervision is that it may be too late to organise for a buddy or to change the locations the leaders stay etc.

It may also be that the person who is ultimate responsibility isn’t the person who said yes yesterday. I’ve had that on a day trip with the playscheme I’m involved in where a committee member said yes to something that I, as the person responsible for the children’s safety on the day, had to say no too.

At a weeks notice it wouldn’t be easy to change the groups around (the OP’s DD won’t be the only one with medical issues so groupings will have been organised appropriately - my DD and her best friend can never be a pair on school trips where they wander off in their twos as they both have health issues) or the leaders if some don’t feel able to take responsibility for a child who self harmed to the point of needing hospital treatment recently.

The main issue is that school said 2 days ago she’d be fine to go until yesterday when they said no. The self harm wasn’t too bad (the cuts weren’t deep) and the anxiety is getting better. She is worried that if she doesn’t go she’ll let her group down as there are only 4 of them and if they go down to 3 they’d fail, and it is a short space of time for the others to join other groups etc.

FWIW, medication is hay fever tablets and iron tablets so only needs it in morning and evening. Afaik there are several check points where they will likely see the teachers, and they have trackers. DD won’t be taking any knives or sharp objects along if she goes (reducing bag weight).

They also have another school trip this Monday, if she is fine on there she likely will be allowed to go on the expedition, depending on what they say

If it's only hayfever and iron, I don't see that teachers would need to take control of them?

May I just say as the mother of a young person who has had mh issues: anxiety, depression, self harm, that in my opinion the risks for a medicated young person, safety netted with therapy and good parenting are much lower than for the many young people self harming in secret, behind a mask, who will be going on trips such as these and nobody knows.

Medication for two nights away is likely to be two antidepressants, not fatal if taken together and not disastrpus if missed due to the long half life. Possibly four propranolol. Again not fatal.

The hysteria on this thread is quite surprising. There is likely to be little medication involved and a hospital visit due to self harm is v v common and usually results in the young person getting some actual support which in the current climate is not forthcomimg without a crisis. Such crisis which is entirely avoidable if the CAMHS thresholds were lower.

My view btw is that if the clinician is agreeable then some brokering with school should take place and adnustments if possi le put in place.

Mothers very often know their children best. My dd sang in front of 500 people 24 hours after leaving A&E (self discharge) because that was best for her and not to do it would have upset her more.

Diagnosed and treated now, 3 years on, just home today after her first year at an Oxbridge College. Do what you believ is right for your dd op, providing other professional stakeholders in the decision and process support you. If it isn't possible then see it as a pebble on the path and get her signed up for a supervised active break - sailing/windsurfing etc.

supporting children with medical conditions statutory guidance
I'll confess to ignorance on that...

Expedition doesn't take place at school, though. DoE is not like a math lesson or daily lunch or other usual school activity provision.

So why was she hospitalised?

@TitianaTitsling - don't want to derail the thread (you might want to start your own thread if you have a specific issue you are concerned about), but you can have a read of the guidance assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/803956/supporting-pupils-at-school-with-medical-conditions.pdf

You need to find out why they’ve changed their mind. It’s fully acceptable to ask them to account for the change in decision.

Only then can you decide if they are being unfair or not.

A school trip is a very different scenario though. Different staff, different challenges and different issues.

It is not common to be hospitalised for a few scratches.

@Lljkk - just posted the link. It covers school activities outside the normal curriculum. So if a young person was attending a D of E group unconnected to the school then it wouldn't apply. But if it is offered through school to the pupils of that school, then it is a school activity. I believe.

Obviously the person who said yes doesn’t have the final say. Does the school work in collaboration with an activity provider? Is it possible the school has said yes but the activity provider has said no?

Also it might be an insurance issue

That could be behind the change I mean.

@OhTheRoses Great input.

If a child turned up with raging norovirus & demanded to do their DoE expedition, they could be stopped. There has to be limits. Not every condition can be accommodated.

Anyway, glad OP came back. I hope her DD's SH days are all in the past, now.

But there will be knives and sharp objects, even if your dd doesnt have them. And surely equipment has to be shared out amongst them so their bags weigh roughly the same.

@OhTheRoses that is a nice insight, but as I mentioned to many members of staff self harming is something they receive little training on and it’s just a report and move on. You have a greater understanding of your child than the staff who will be trying to support all the other students to succeed in unfamiliar environments, frequently in their own time after a full week of teaching. I think it’s understandable they may feel less comfortable with the situation

LLjkk - a GP wouldn't sign them off to do it though would they? I don't think anyone on this thread has said that the young person should do this against medical advice.

Where did the op say her dd had been hospitalised M1Mountain? The op's first post said had been to hospital.

When my dd took 10 anti-histamine and went to A&E two days later the staff wanted to admit her overnight for a CAMHS assessment. That is significantly different to being involuntary admitted or hospitalised. It is happening too regularly because gettimg early interventions for young people is almost impossible due to poor commissioning and mismanagement of resources as much as it is due to a lack of resources.

Who would take anybody to hospital for scratches? It said she had to go ,you don’t gave to go for scratches.