To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

My DD wasn’t versed in the interview process. Like many others, she engaged with the tutors and had a conversation about what they asked her. It wasn’t riddles or obscure questions. They want to know how she thought, whether she could follow her thoughts through and elaborate on them and whether she was receptive to their style of teaching. Many DC who are engaged with their subject can do this.

Pretty sure most wouldn’t have a spare 10k for a summer school either.

I have just had a look at the cost of Harvard Summer School. It’s $4,600 I am guessing that doesn’t include the cost of flights. Some people don’t live in the real fucking world

A summer school at Harvard wouldn't be on their radar as they wouldn't even know that such opportunities exist.

They’d know that Harvard exists, and would have access to the internet. Why would they not be able to find out about summer schools?

(Though I accept that funding attendance at one might be a different matter).

Simple:

Henrietta Barnett school +QE boys in barnet
Tiffin grammar schools for girls and boys in Surrey.

It’s pie in the sky for 99% of people.

Agree with TeentimesTwo and Bubbles regarding the defeatist attitude of your DS’s friend, TyraAllen.

I think geography would play a big part. In most counties people attend universities that are nearer to them.

'The Oxbridge application evening was in our county recently. It was held at the private school in a nearby town, which has no public transport access in the evening. It was not well attended, '

Aargh, it's so appallingly inept.
I wonder if the people who organised it realised quite how much they had fucked up or if they were all injured innocence and 'we're doing our best, but state school students just don't apply!'

I wouldn't invest in expensive summer schools in the hope they'd give you a chance at Oxbridge. When I was at Oxford the summer schools used University facilities and often hired university grad students (who may have no interest or experience in teaching) but had no other association with the university and would be of no help to a candidate who wanted to get in as an undergrad. They were mainly wel off Rich Americans who wanted a fun summer holiday in a historic city, staying in a famous university. They generally had fun but it wouldn't help them get in to Oxford if they applied. By all means do summer schools because you can easily afford it and think the experience will be enriching but not because you think it's a step towards a place.

Housing is no more expensive at Oxbridge colleges than anywhere else

Is that for the entirety of the course? I know a lot of unis do for the first year, some last but the rest your renting privately, which oxford and Cambridge are bloody expensive towns.

They could easily have understood the application process by reading the wealth of material online. The evening recognised that the Oxbridge process was a bit different from that for other Universities, so was offering extra support to clarify and guide. But they instead used it as a justification for how the snooty academics were trying to catch them out with their tricksy complicated rules.

SaveKevin

Yes.

You’d need to add on a similar amount for accommodation insurance and flights. Utterly insane.

Was the evening organised by the college outreach programs?

Some are very, very good. Others not well organised at all.

Some prestigious private schools have had more outreach than entire areas.

First and last @SaveKevin (and sometimes all through), so it's a maximum of one year house share for a standard three year course.

DS is somehow graduating without overdraft or credit card debt (and we haven't showered him in cash). So nobody should be deterred on that basis.

Grace
It’s a bit unrealistic to expect a teenager to track down a summer school at an Ivy League university if nobody they know has ever done it or mentioned its existence.
I was the first person in my family to go to university. When my DN was starting 6th form it was clear that my DB had no practical experience of the university admissions process. I spent quite some time walking him through everything so he could help his son. If you have successfully navigated the process you forget how opaque it can appear to someone who has never been through it.

You can see why rich Harvard summer school boy would be more likely to get a place though- loads of exciting experiences to increase confidence and aid conversation at interview....

'Are people actually saying, in all seriousness, that they think they wouid stand out as a “northerner” at Oxford or Cambridge?

What kind of parochial- mindedness is that fgs?'

It's realistic. You would stand out. My best friend at Oxford was from Barnsley (private school) and she was ribbed a lot about her accent. In a friendly way, but yes it did absolutely make her stand out because while it was not vanishingly rare it was very much not the norm especially in our subject (Classics - there was a 'northern chemist' stereotype).
There were quite a few people from the north (big Manchester grammar contingent for example) but only some had the local accent.

Are people actually saying, in all seriousness, that they think they would stand out as a “northerner” at Oxford or Cambridge?

There were quite a few northerners when I was there, honestly no one gave much of a shit after the first week (when you went through the awkward "where are you from?" "What subject are you doing?" questions)

It’s more than that Chaz it’s imposdible for all but the Uber rich 10k on one child to go to summer school.Ludicrous. Then you get the private education on top.

Stem is equally as good at Imperial

I would agree to an extent - imperial is an excellent university for STEM (I went to Oxford and in some respects the degree at Imperial was better) but getting into Oxbridge is a bit more competitive and for that reason the degree is sometimes viewed as superior by employers - particularly if you graduated in the top ten in your year.

SaveKevin choose your Oxbridge college wisely and you'll be in heavily subsidised housing for three years, making it far cheaper than other universities.

Though as a lefty it pains me to say this, the private school admission statistics need to take into account the fact that a fair proportion of those applicants will be kids on academic scholarships in the first place, not necessarily from hugely wealthy families.

I do think this thread highlights a lot of misinformation about the admission process. To think that ludicrously expensive summer schools are at all necessary or that the interview process is mysterious and requires some level of secrecy or understanding are some examples. (It's useful to know what to expect at the interview
but you can easily look up example questions on the admission page for your subject).

Yes of course I realise that going on a Harvard summer programme wouldn’t occur to 99% of people - even if they could afford it. That’s not the point though.

I live in the Richmond Borough and have DC at two separate schools within walking distance of us that both send about 20-30% to Oxbridge every year. They send that amount again to US unis.

To go down either of these routes, you don’t need to be an “outlier” as such. Just slightly above average in the context of these schools and with the financial means behind you. There are departments to guide you through both application routes. This makes a massive difference..Many / most of the teachers are Oxbridge educated or similar. Many if the parents are. The reason my DC’s friends are off on the Yale or Harvard summer programmes etc is because they are from international families and the parents themselves went there.

So no, things are not equal by any means, But if you limit your options before you even look into matters - eg Oxford is “too far” ; there won’t be anyone with my accent etc etc, I think this is crazy because these unis (all unis actually) are international and nobody notices these things.

If anything, I’ve found that the more privileged a young person is going into such an establishment, the more they try and play it down. It’s not cool to be perceived as “posh” and unis are a great social- leveller - once you get in of course!

Even at my DC’s school there are DC of oligarchs alongside the 20% of pupils there on bursaries. Nobody looks down on anyone. If you got in the school, you’re in and you make the most of it. It’s as simple as that.