To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

Housing is no more expensive at Oxbridge colleges than anywhere else and there are often hardship grants available (often funded by generation alumni donations).

Gcacademic Richmond does not have grammar schools. There are two in Kingston nearby which are heavily oversubscribed

In terms of the whole population it does mean that there are more students of ethnic backgrounds than proportional.

In terms of the make up for that age group it means that they are still under represented, there are significantly higher percentages of ethnic minorities in the under 30s.

I agree if they dont apply they wont get in, however many London school students are also drawn to bigger city universities too, I've heard Durham described as a one horse town before.

But Holes there are other unis who offer really good STEMdegrees. I’m appalled that youngsters are written off by top companies if they don’t go to Oxbridge. That is really shocking. Other unis and other experience can be just as good in STEM surely.

Maybe this is the issue with social mobility in this country and what needs addressing is the obsession with Oxbridge. So much talent must be going untapped just because kids didn’t go to Oxbridge.

Cambridge as a city is more inclusive than Oxford. I remember once reading about how bame students tend to consider facilities such as specialist hairdressers / affordable hair removal etc as vital when applying for university. For example I am an Indian woman and need to remove facial hair professionally every week (nothing it’s possible to yourself works) & I would never consider a town where facial threading / waxing costs £40 a time. Similarly many black and Indian students have hair types that cannot be washed / combed /cleaned by themselves.

So all of these facilities, including the availability of a variety of BAME foods needs to be considered.

Just being lighthearted, I forgot that Mumsnet was so po-faced.

if you have a degree from Oxford or Cambridge no employer ever said “ah but I know that the course in this subject at Loughborough is much better so I’m not going to give you any credit for having gone to Cambridge”.

This is an important point. I used to work for Oxford (not in admissions!) and I can tell you that preservation of their name and reputation is extremely important to them. It’s a global brand and they do not want it diluted in any way. They will continue to only take the best, whatever they perceive that to be, and if the best happen to be mostly white and privately educated, then so be it. They don’t actively discriminate but they’re not going to change what they do, just because the numbers look bad.

Well, I just don't know.
Dh and I are both from Oxbridgey backgrounds (he has been an admissions tutor back in the day) and now live in the north. We know a fair number of bright teens who go to average northern comprehensives and they just never seem to get in, but a fair few have gone to Durham instead and ended up with firsts, so they probably were good enough tbh.
We also know several people who stayed at Oxbridge and do admissions and access widening things and we have seen a worrying amount of complacency even among well meaning people - they are convinced their unconscious bias training has given them the tools to see through accents etc but I am not convinced it really has.
None of my academic friends are snooty, they all just want the brightest students to teach and don't care what background they come from, but it is clearly extremely difficult teasing out the results of excellent Oxbridge-focused secondary education from natural intelligence and interest in the subject, and I am increasingly unconvinced they are any good at it. I am just seeing too much of a correlation between 'going to the right school' (ie a south eastern private or grammar) and getting into Oxbridge, among the kids I know.
I always used to take it for granted I would encourage my kids to apply to Oxbridge if they were bright enough, but now I am not sure I would, because I just never see anyone at all from their type of school getting in, no matter how good they are (Not that it will matter as they won't take any notice of where I think they should apply )

@GCAcademic Richmond Borough does not have any state grammar schools.

You don't sound lighthearted so much as bitter, though I am not quite sure why.

It could be that they are also choosing subjects that have a better reputation at other universities. When I was applying for university (back in 2004!) York Uni was the 2nd best university in the country for English (my degree) after Cambridge - Durham was 3rd and Oxford 4th. So I went to York. I wanted the best education possible for my money, and at the time, Oxford wasn’t it.
My brother wanted to do Sports Science so went to Loughborough, the best uni in the country for his subject.
So are students from those areas pursuing more vocational subjects that lead more directly into a job? Again, this comes down to money in a sense - those from more affluent backgrounds can do Philosophy at Oxford without the worry of what they will do for paid work afterwards?

No, not at all bitter. Just fed up with the constant “it’s snooty and not for the likes of us” refrain that seems to echo around these discussions. I think it is sad that so many people miss out as a result.

Yeah, but you're not exactly helping with that, are you?!

I mean, come on.

If I'd met someone sneering at people who didn't get in and calling people snowflakes for fancying the odd trip home, I would tend to think they were a bit snobby.

I have no problem with people who don’t get in, just the ones who get rejected then get all chippy and claim it was shit anyway.

And I’m not sure how thinking that people who can’t spend 8 weeks away from their homes are a bit precious is snobbery- yes, it is a judgmental thing to say but it has nothing to do with social class. I’d think the same about anyone from any social class (at any University) who had this mentality.

No, not at all bitter. Just fed up with the constant “it’s snooty and not for the likes of us” refrain that seems to echo around these discussions. I think it is sad that so many people miss out as a result.

I don't think acknowledging that wealth and private education smooth the path to Oxbridge is at odds with encouraging all highly intelligent teens to, at least, try.

Unfortunately school culture can massively help or hinder a young person with Oxbridge ambitions. But the only way to defy that pattern is to ignore it and apply.

The Oxbridge application evening was in our county recently. It was held at the private school in a nearby town, which has no public transport access in the evening. It was not well attended, and did not make a particularly good impression on DS or his friends, only partly because of were it was held.

As one put it, the fact that the application process has to be explained to them, because they can't just understand it like any other university, already makes it feel like it isn't something for them.

And I’m not sure how thinking that people who can’t spend 8 weeks away from their homes are a bit precious is snobbery

But no one has indicated this is the case.

Some people like to spend time where they grew up. They might even, you know, be going to see and do useful things that'd help them in their degrees. Who knows?

Are people actually saying, in all seriousness, that they think they wouid stand out as a “northerner” at Oxford or Cambridge?

What kind of parochial- mindedness is that fgs?

People come from all over the world to these unis - or to any uni for that matter. Do you really think a student whose just come over from Beijing will have a clue who is from Hull and who is from Hampshire? Who cares?

The UK is a tiny country in the scheme of things. What’s the difference if your’re in Newcastle or Exeter? It’s not as if you’re making the journey back and forth every week! Find the right course and take it from there.

One of my DC has just finished GCSE and he has friends who are off to summer schools at Harvard, Yale etc in a few weeks. These kids are 16. Do you think they’re worrying about their class or accent or taking a “not for the likes of us” attitude. No they are not. There will be students from all over the world there and they’ll just get on with it.

I am afraid Catloons that this kind of prejudice does happen. I am guessing you are not from Middlesbrough or Doncaster?

You are missing the point. Your contention was that they might have interviewed less well "for whatever reason". My claim is that the reason could be that despite being clever enough, they were not well versed in the Oxbridge interview process. If every university interviewed every student, you might have a point, but they don't. Privilege and advantage are alive and well.

I think you're missing my point. Yes the reason could be that they weren't very well versed it the interview process. Or it could be that they just didn't show strong enough ability beyond what they were taught. It could be many things. Which is why pointing at 2 individuals and saying "it's not fair that they didn't get in" is wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree that if you go to a school which has experience in sending kids to Oxbridge, does practice interviews and so on, then you probably have a better chance. But I think the more fundamental thing is not being discouraged from applying in the first place.

And the opportunities you are taking about Catloons are just for rich kids. Most kids from less affluent backgrounds could only dream of spending summer at Harvard.

Tyra
The application process has to be explained to everyone. I went to Cambridge but I wouldn't understand the current process without reading around it. I bet it is all on their website though, and admission tutors would be happy to explain.

It reads to me that the local independent school ran an evening to explain the application process (presumably the local state schools could have combined to do similar?), and made the evening open to all (to help access). It was in a nearby town (which is presumably better than being in the middle of the countryside).

What more would you and your DS actually want?

Exactly How the cost for a summer school at Harvard would be insane.😂

Anyone interested in Oxbridge will want to know the application process. It’s fair that they explain it surely? If he went with a closed mind and they reinforced that he couldn’t be bothered, so be it. Keen people would have wanted to know. Does no one have a car where you live? Most people make some effort to get their DC to something important and support them! Did he not understand that Oxbridge is looking for more than results? Looks like he wanted the easy route.

I do think some DC don’t want to leave their home City. It’s not so much going home that’s a problem, it’s the not leaving home in the first place.

Stem is equally as good at Imperial and Economics is as good at LSE. Sport clearly isn’t an Oxbridge subject so a rather pointless comparison. Many branches of Engineering are better at universities other than Oxbridge. There are many degrees that people think don’t lead to much but are in fact a springboard to Law, the Civil Service and other employers who take humanities grads.

Even if someone from a less privileged background applies for a summer school at Oxford through their UNIQ scheme, they still only have between a 1 in 4 or 1 in 7 chance of getting a place. A summer school at Harvard wouldn't be on their radar as they wouldn't even know that such opportunities exist.