To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

Nobody NEEDS Ivy League Summer Camps for Oxbridge, and Oxbridge admissions tutors couldn't care less about them. Ox/Cam tutors have repeatedly said so.

But somebody always drops some comment like that on these threads to show off, and the private education and 'elite admissions' industries make their profits by insisting that they can give applicants competitive advantage.

The only thing public schools and summer camps add is extra confidence.

I do think there's an argument for confidence. Interviewers will do their best to put candidates at ease but students from schools who send people to Oxbridge every year generally will know some of the people who have gone previously and will know while they're probably very bright and hard working their probably not usually world class geniuses. There are misconceptions from students who haven't had that experience that they have to be really special (or to have a CV filled with work experience and summer schools) to stand a chance.

They're not their! (Clearly I didn't study English!)

'Does no one have a car where you live? Most people make some effort to get their DC to something important and support them!'

Bubblesbuddy, can you really not think of any reasons why a student from a not-particularly-privileged background might not be able to find someone to drive them to an Oxbridge information evening?

I am massively in favour of things being organised in such a way that a motivated, bright student from a poor background or one that doesn't value education is enabled to take the initiative and transcend their background by their own efforts. Holding something like this in a place where you need a car to get there does precisely the opposite of this.

It’s not “showing off” because my kids aren’t going and I never knew such s thing existed tbh. It’s just a statement of fact that people do this kind of thing, while others think anything beyond 50 miles away is too far!

Richmond doesn't have any grammar schools - Kingston and Sutton are the only SW London boroughs which still have them.

Catloons are you thick? The point is not whether it would occur to people to go to Harvard. It’s an issue of cost

Most people make some effort to get their DC to something important and support them!'

What about a child in care or a child whose parents didn't go to university and thinks it's probably a waste of time and they should get a "real job". Or a child who has a single parent with young siblings to care for or can't afford to run a car. I do think these things should be made easier for exactly these types of kids.

Bubbles - Does no one have a car where you live?

Quite a few don't. It is a distinctly poorer area with some of the lowest performing schools in the country. The friend who made the statement came with me and DS and his mum, who doesn't have a car, speaks English as a second language and is a single parent. She's made a massive effort to get something better for her son by leaving her home country and also leaving his father who was not nice at all.

The point he was making was mostly that other universities don't require a lengthy explanation of the application process. You apply. They say yes or no. You pick from the acceptances.

TeenTimesTwo - I don't think the private school put the event on, it looked like they were just providing the facilities. It would have been much much better to have held it at any one of the many state high schools in the city, or even one of the state schools in that town, most of which are somewhat accessible.

Mostly, I think holding an event to say 'we're not just for privately educated kids' in a private school is not a good look.

If they do have a car they my not have the money for petrol. Lots of kids live in dire straights and it limits their life choices. I know that a lot of mumsnetters can’t get their heads around this but it’s a fact.

Of course it’s an issue of cost! I’m not disputing that. No need to be rude.

It’s also about mentality though. You could be an A* student as I was. Nobody ever suggested Oxbridge. It just wasn’t in the radar of my teachers or parents.

This thread was about why so many go from Richmond and I’m saying it’s because there are so many schools where it’s not only in the radar, but it’s not seen as particularly exceptional.

Obviously you have to pay to get into these schools. I’m not disputing that - I’m giving it as a reason for the high proportion of Ixbridge entrants from Richmond Borough.

As for Tiffin, yes it’s in Kingston but you don’t have to live in Kingston to get in so many will come from Richmond borough as it’s just down the road.

Richmond is a wealthy borough. There are perhaps wealthier ones eg K&C, but Richmond is where families from K&C may well move out to in order to get a bit more space and greenery, plus the river. So it’s very much a family borough and people come for the schools, specifically the two St Paul’s, Latymer Upper, Godolphin and Latymer, Kings College etc. Hampton and LEH are also very popular and there are coaches.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel - thank you for understanding my point.

DS's school has twice the average number of pupils on FSM, as well as a high rate of pupils in care. That is fairly standard for this area.

There is not one teacher at the school who went to either Oxford or Cambridge, and for most of the kids a summer programme will the either the one run by the local police, or by the local football club, mostly because those will be in walking distance and those parents who have cars can't ferry them around to loads of activities because they are working.

Catloon It isn’t about mentality at all. It’s about cost.

You can see how the system works though when they are sorting through lots of students with good grades. A child like my son who will be cleaning caravans all summer not on pp or privately educated Tarquin with exciting Harvard summer schools to discuss theories with.

There really is no point.

Makes my blood boil as if he had the same opportunities he’d be just as good and the non Oxbridge degree he’ll get won’t mske him any less capable.

Why are we letting Oxbtidge dictate the social mobility in this country?

The point he was making was mostly that other universities don't require a lengthy explanation of the application process. You apply. They say yes or no. You pick from the acceptances.

This is also true of Oxbridge. The application procedure is straight forward and anyone can look it up simply online. Yes it involves sitting some tests and an interview but this is clearly explained on the admission page and how else are they meant to choose between candidates with straight A*s?

The point of the admissions evening is generally to reassure students that it isn't some mysterious procedure and encourage them to give it a shot if they're qualified to do so. I agree though that if they're going to hold an admissions evening (it isn't at all necessary to attend one - all the information is available online) they should make it easily accessible.

howwudufeel
It’s both.
You can’t ignore the cultural/educational capital element either.

Knowing how the system works and how to build a better profile / portfolio helps. Interview practice, advice on which college etc. Just being in an environment where going to university is expected and where people do consider summer schools gives you an advantage.

My Northern, average comprehensive background child has just heard she has got a first from one of the Oxbridge colleges often seen as snobby. She has had the best time and made a bunch of very varied friends during her time in reasonable priced accomodation all 3 years! I think the issue is in perception and not having the confidence to apply in the first place. If you hate the idea of old buildings and a few Hogwarts type traditions it may not appeal and as ever the course has to be the right one for you. Information online gave us everything we needed to know.

Chazs I was talking to Catloon about Harvard Summer School. She seems to believe that if children found out about these things they would be able to go, just like her DS and his chums. She doesn’t understand that a lot of very clever children don’t have parents who can afford to spend £10,000 on summer school.

“Catloon It isn’t about mentality at all. It’s about cost.”

But a bright child should not assume doors will be shut in their faces as default. Some of the brightest pupils in my DCs schools are there absolutely free. They are immigrants from high- rise estates; children from all walks of life and all cultures and religion. Yes they may be outliers and for every child who gets in, there will be a hundred who didn’t get that chance. But that’s not a reason to just assume “not for the likes of us.”

Do you really think any undergraduate finding their feet at Cambridge wouid think, “I don’t believe it - I was in a seminar today and someone spoke with a Northern accent!” when these unis are inundated with students coming in from India or China?

Yes. Rich students from India and China.

M1
Most successful Oxbridge entrants will not have been on a summer school.
Tutors at good university are looking for students who are genuinely interested and excited about their subject. If your son is keen then get him to explore his subject in more depth outside of the curriculum (there are loads of online resources) and encourage him to speak to the family about it to practice. Then go for it. He has as much right to a place as anyone else.

But those will be the richest from India and China.

Actually it would be quite unusual to be in a first-year tutorial with someone just landed from India or China, those students are mostly postgrads.

You are everything that’s wrong with the system Catloon. Why would you refer to dc as outliers, simply because they are immigrants?