To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

Funny. I went to a 1970s built box of a comprehensive school that has since been pulled down because it was riddled with asbestos. A major plus of going to Cambridge was the chance to live/eat/learn in lovely old, wood-panelled buildings. In fact, I remember having the sudden realisation that for my peers who had gone to prep and public schools with similar buildings that it was quite sad for them that they took such surroundings for granted and didn’t get the same pleasure from the beauty of the place. As for belonging, as soon as you are accepted you have as much right to be there as anyone else. I really don’t see why people doubt that. And what do you lose by just applying?

@GraceSlicksRabbit @growlingbear

I completely agree but it's not me that needs convincing. I think also the kids I'm talking about can't see - because they've never been exposed to it - all the other advantages of going to Oxbridge, not just academically but the people they'll meet, the networks they can build and just the sheer exposure to really wealthy people can completely change the way you see the world.

But I think it’s also important for them to know that a huge proportion of the people that they meet will not be wealthy or especially privileged, they will just be like-minded souls with a similar eagerness to learn and have fun. And that connections happen organically, it’s not a networking mission from day one. Otherwise it makes Oxbridge sound far too different from other Universities, socially, and therefore too much of a leap outside their comfort zone.

FWIW, the state school Northerners I know who went to/go to Oxford all feel like they fit in

This was me a million years ago and my DC now.

The stereotypes on this thread did not exist then and they do not exist now.

Otherwise it makes Oxbridge sound far too different from other Universities, socially, and therefore too much of a leap outside their comfort zone

I believe that universities such as St Andrews, Bristol and Exeter have a less diverse intake than Oxbridge.

I agree. I went to an open weekend at St. Andrews and was totally put off! (despite being Scottish...or maybe because of that, who knows...) I can see why Wills and Kate fitted in so well there.

just laughing at the price of the May Ball tickets (even if that is for 2!).
I know you don't have to go, but a lot would want to go. The price definitely makes it exclusive. DD has just done Leeds Ball (I know they are very difference experiences) and I think that was £35 and lasted until 6am.

It may be the case that my perception of Oxbridge is off too - I didn't go or apply but I've worked with lots of people who did, they tended to be people from well-off backgrounds and almost exclusively from the London / home counties.
Those of you who did go - if you were talking to an A* pupil who isn't applying because they don't think it's for the likes of them, what would you tell them? What can I say that would help?

@outinthe country

I would tell them to go to an outreach event or to an Open Day. They would learn a lot and have a much better informed base on which to make a decision. They should also be realistic and recognise that all those who are applying will have A* predictions.But the only way to guarantee not getting a place is not to apply.

I very much doubt transport links have anything to do with. It’s because those London boroughs have a lot of wealthy people and private schools. Private schools ABSOLUTELY train and hot-house children for Oxbridge.

the price of May Ball tickets

Yes they are expensive. But given that May Balls have a lead time of 18 months or so it is usually possible to work and save the money for the ticket if you really want to go. Or if its in your college you can get on the committee and get in for free.

I am always astonished to hear that Oxbridge undergrads - all of whom are intelligent and privileged whatever their family background- find these obstacles so insurmountable. Actually I don’t think they do!

Outinthecountry the best way to encourage people is for them to meet someone who IS “the likes of them” who is or was there and enjoyed it. Most colleges do have programmes to match such people up with applicants, in my day there was a central initiative at Cambridge called Target Schools.I volunteered and was matched up with a school in Cumbernauld, when I tried to set up a visit the head of Sixth Year wrote back and said that none of her pupils were interested so not to come... I was too young to insist but it has always rankled me that she didn’t get that they couldn’t know they might be interested without learning a bit more.

'Those of you who did go - if you were talking to an A* pupil who isn't applying because they don't think it's for the likes of them, what would you tell them? What can I say that would help?'

I would say 1. Yes it does have a lot of very privileged people but not everyone. Oxford and Cambridge are big enough that there will be people like you - it's not difficult to find your niche. 2. The fact that the colleges are rich means that they have a lot of money to give away in terms of hardship grants, travel grants, book grants, and food and accommodation are very subsidised. If you are not wealthy you might actually find you are better off going to Oxbridge than elsewhere - don't assume that because the university is rich that you have to be rich to go there.

Like Grace, I went to a Northern comprehensive but that didn't make me think the gowns and panelled wood and dawn choral from Magdalen tower with bucks fizz for breakfast were 'not for the likes of me'. They just made me think, 'Bring it on!' I love all the quirks and traditions and never felt excluded by them. I don't quite understand it when people create or perpetuate their own class barriers instead of knocking them down.

Thanks all. @GraceSlicksRabbit - it's great that you volunteered to do that and so frustrating they didn't take you up on it. I'll keep plugging away.

“ I don't quite understand it when people create or perpetuate their own class barriers instead of knocking them down.”

Exactly growlingbear. If you’re able to gain a place at Oxbridge or any uni then you should assume you start on an equal footing with everyone else.

As if being “from the North” is any excuse these days really. If that’s the biggest chip you have to bear on your shoulder, then I’d say you’re doing quite well. For instance, there is a transgender pupil at DC’s school who has a conditional offer to Oxbridge this year. Did they say “not for the likes of me?” No they did not.

And also, wouldn’t most people who had managed to get in without being spoon-fed and coached through the admissions process actually have the right to feel superior to those who had? (This is lighthearted, I am not saying that reverse snobbery is something that people should indulge in either).

But, and this is a true story, I was talking to a High Court Judge at a college alumni event the other day- her son went to Eton and then to on to Oxford and she genuinely did say that her poor boy had faced a lot of prejudice because people just assumed he was a posh twat who had had it all handed to him on a plate. Made me laugh but maybe she had a glimmer of a point, I don’t know.

I find so much of the talk about Oxbridge is about correcting misapprehensions about the place when really, our starting point should be about asserting what it is actually about.

I spent a year at Oxford on a postgrad. My grades, throughout all of my studying, were not spectacular, however I was singularly engaged with my subject. It was alive to me. I read ferociously and it never occurred to me that I couldn’t interact with issues on it just because I wasn’t an A grade pupil. I often wonder why I got a place there and I think they did take a chance on me, which I hope I have done justice to, but fundamentally it was the right environment for me. That cannot be gamed, something those who hot house state pupils need to realise.

All of the comments about money, access, confidence, etc ring true to me but they should only be part of a much bigger picture for the student. They are more than their circumstances and I think Oxbridge does realise this. I have witnessed much more entitlement and pretentiousness at my undergrad (Manchester). This class warfare ultimately hurts the most vulnerable in society and the anti Oxbridge rhetoric hurts those state pupils who went. They are our universities, public and part of the state apparatus that we all pay for through out taxes and have investment in as citizens.

For what it’s worth, my straight A grade brother rejected his maths place for UCL where he stayed and did his PhD.

If all things were equal in terms of funding of education then perhaps people wouldn’t have to bear ‘chips’ on their shoulders Catloon. Social mobility is a complex issue and everyone who knows anything about it says that it is getting worse for many children. To say, from your position of privilege, that children should simply get on with it is overly simplistic, naive and judgemental.

No idea why you keep singling me out on this thread how, when plenty of others have made similar points. Of course it’s a complex issue, but there is also a point where it becomes self-perpetuating. Where would women be if we had continued to say “not for the likes of us?” It takes acetysin attitude to breakthd mould.

I came here from very basic circumstances of the kind that aren’t found in the UK. I didn’t have the attitude that “all British are like this,” or “ they will think I’m a peasant,” or excuses such as “it’s a bit too far on the plane”, or “some may have more money than me.” You can talk yourself out if anything if you’re that way inclined.

I am not singling you put Catloons. I am merely responding to what you said

Definitely think there is something in Northern Kids not aspiring to Oxbridge Universities. I know 4/5 that had the grades but chose Durham, Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool.

Do you realise too that social mobility is even worse now than it was when you were younger due to tuition fees? I am defending young people who want the opportunity to do well and are thwarted for reasons beyond their control. The class system works against them at every juncture. Call me, or them chippy, but I am right. You wouldn’t criticise the young people from your country who couldn’t afford to get on a plane to the UK so don’t slag off kids from the UK who don’t have the money to access opportunities here.

James Kirkup on economic geography, referencing education / Oxbridge.
unherd.com/2019/06/how-the-poor-are-kept-in-their-place/?=sideshare