To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

I agree with that countess.

I think doing things online is good, too. I know there are youtube videos about admissions and admissions tutors post on that forum for students (having a mind blank about its name, but it's really big). But ideally there'd be more, and more links between GCSE/A Level and outreach. And that's true about universities in general, not just Oxbridge.

M1Mountain - yes, it would definitely not have been a coachload. If it had been pupils only, they probably could have filled the minibus across the whole cluster of schools (3 secondary), but that would have required one of the teachers going with them which really isn't fair - as I said, it does not have a 6th form.

I won't deny that there is a massive attitude that 'Oxbridge isn't for us' but there's no examples for them to see, and I don't know anyone in this city who went there (I only know one person at all who went to Oxford and they now live in Japan) and tbh it doesn't really enter their daily lives. The only time Oxford has come up in conversation recently was something on news about the Tory party leadership contest being yet another fight between Eton/Oxford educated posh blokes.

Money.

Pupils from top schools get a lot of help with essay competitions.

I think the question is are they applying?
If they are and aren’t getting in that’s one thing.
If they aren’t, why not? That’s a different question.

I came from a home where we weren’t pushed, I was intelligent, did well, really well. But took one look at the cost of uni and couldn’t afford it. I wasn’t eligible for a nursery, but didn’t know about loans and how that worked. I just knew I couldn’t afford it.
Engaged Pro active parents make a massive difference even without the benefit of wealth

@ChristmasInJuly
When I was applying for university (back in 2004!) York Uni was the 2nd best university in the country for English (my degree) after Cambridge - Durham was 3rd and Oxford 4th. So I went to York. I wanted the best education possible for my money, and at the time, Oxford wasn’t it.

Why didn’t you apply to Cambridge?

Ok, yellowwellies, I'm surprised that's all, as when I was at Cambridge my college living costs were less than 1k a term (was a while ago but I don't think it's gone up more than 50% at most). The big difference is that you only paid for 30 weeks a year accommodation, whereas at other places after the first year you would be paying for the whole year, and normally a higher cost too for private. (The student flats I see going up around Leeds are often starting at £150 a week.)

GraceSlicksRabbit I thought it would be a waste of an application as I didn’t do very well in my AS exams. I ended up doing a ton of re-sits and pulled my overall grades up to 3 A’s in the end, but I didn’t think it would be enough, and was told as much by my 6th form tutor.
I also fell in love with York Uni on an open day. It was definitely the right decision as I met my now DH while I was there!

I hate to say it but not very good As grades would have acted as a barrier to Cambridge. They used to look at As grades first when inviting for interview.

But the bad AS results would also have been an obstacle to an application to Oxford then ChristmasinJuly, would they not?

whatsthecomingoverthehill I agree. Yellowwellies , you may have been lacking information when calculating this extra £60 a week. The suggestion that your son was going to have to work a lot to earn his keep while at Cambridge, when this is expressly forbidden, sounds like you didn’t have the full picture. Did you take into account the availability of 3 years’ subsidised accommodation, only payable in term time vs another University which may have cheap halls for first year but then throws you on the mercy of the private sector after that?

@whatsthecomingoverthehill my DD is in Leeds and most of the student houses are less than £100 each - although obviously there is always more expensive plush accommodation.

my DD is in Leeds and most of the student houses are less than £100 each

We went to the open day last Saturday and couldn't believe they were wanting £150 per week for what was basically a prison cell without room to swing a cat. My son couldn't even lie down properly on the bed as it was squeezed between two walls and must have been shorter than the standard adult bed. The communal kitchen was also tiny considering it was supposed to be for 6 people - there weren't even 6 chairs!

Train travel from Lancaster to Cambridge - 5 hours each way and £112 cheapest advance return fare. Meaning you can't do it in a day and would need overnight accommodation adding to the cost.

London to Cambridge £24 return on a 90 minute journey meaning easily doable in a day.

So, yes, travel distances/time/cost does have an impact - how could it not?

For interviews Kazzy the colleges provide accommodation free of charge.

Cambridge is hard to get to from the North West. The quickest way to get there is to travel via London then get to Kings across. Oxford is easier because you can change At Birmingham.

Are those ticket prices with a rail card Kazzy?

I was talking specifically about going to Cambridge from Yorkshire, which is not difficult at all. Of course some places will be more difficult, and that will have an effect (for example the proportion of people from the South West is twice as many at Oxford than Cambridge).

I was probably odd in that I didn't go to any open days. I only went to Cambridge for my interview (and Birmingham and Bristol supposedly for an interview, but when I got there the first thing they said was that they were going to give an offer, so it was a bit of an open day by stealth!). And I didn't go with my parents either. I don't know if there has been a change in parental involvement - maybe with it costing so much these days parents want to check that they're not going to waste their money.

Yes. It would be easier from Yorkshire because you are on the east side of the UK. To be honest the journey from the NW isn’t too bad. There are lots of fast trains to Euston and in turn fast trains to Cambridge. The only tricky bit is Euston to Kings Cross if you have a ton of bags.

I don't know if there has been a change in parental involvement - maybe with it costing so much these days parents want to check that they're not going to waste their money.

We've been to two open days so far - nearly everyone was with parents - very, very few people walking around on their own. Maybe because there's so much choice these days that the students are swamped with choice/options and need help. Not only are there far more universities, there's also so many different course options at each. We've found our son's school to be particularly hopeless as regards giving the pupils any real information or advice, so speaking for ourselves as parents, we feel we have to support our son as he's drowning in information/choices at the moment. He's absolutely petrified of making the wrong decision (i.e. wrong uni, wrong subject, wrong course, wrong accommodation) especially given that it's so expensive and pulling out during the first year to start again the year after will cost him (us) around £15k! They're under enormous stress/pressure these days so need all the help they can get.

DP went to a couple of open days with DS. DP is pretty laid back and let DS crack on with things. They both said there were some very intense parents which they found very amusing.

I have just seen that the Cambridge May Ball costs £345 That would take DS over 60 hours work to pay for a ticket.

how Is that a double ticket (so it only costs half each)?
Which college - they will vary in price. From a quick look that looks at the pricier end of the spectrum.

They aren't compulsory, and they do go on all night.

I employ and have employed (weekend / holiday jobs) a few teenagers who go to a good selective grammar, mostly A* students and not one of them has applied to Oxbridge because they don't think they'll fit in - we're East Midlands so it's as easy for them to get to Cambridge and Oxford as it is to Manchester or Birmingham. I've argued the case but they're more comfortable with the idea of the others. I think it's still very much the 'not for the likes if us' mentality and I don't know how you shift that. Oxbridge need to do a lot more outreach to kids like these, get them along to open days early on and make them feel that they'd be welcome rather than tolerated.

I think it comes down to confidence more than anything - you have to feel comfortable in your surroundings and if you don't spend a lot of time in 'fancy' places with wood-panelled rooms and beautiful buildings then you just get the message over the years that they're not for you.

I really worry about this notion of 'not fitting in' because it's self perpetuating. If applications come predominantly from white middle class pupils from the South East, educated privately or in grammars and 'leafy' comps, then that's the pool the unis must draw on.
FWIW, the state school Northerners I know who went to/go to Oxford all feel like they fit in.