To be upset that he didn't respect my wishes about taking my children out on open water

[twirlytwit]

Long story short... FIL lives in small harbour side town on south coast. There is a walled off tidal pool, with a promenade walk way which we've witness children practicing sailing in previously.
Visiting FIL for Father's Day, 2.5 hour journey by car, happy to do so, relationships are good.
He's been keen to take the children out on his two man sea kayak and small dinghy with a motor for a while. I've never really been keen - kids are 4 and 6 now so I felt too young last year to either appreciate it or do so safely.
DH and children had to go without me Fri night as I had to work Sat morning.. then follow on by train, length of trip meaning I didn't arrive until 1600.
Before going I had a chat with DH and said very clearly that I was only comfortable with him taking the children on such a small boat within this walled harbour area and organised wetsuits for them to go. I even said to him I would consider it a serious breach of trust if he ignored my wishes. Also mentioned in a text to FIL re organising wetsuits that I wasn't keen for them to go in open water.
So yesterday I arrive (Sat) the kids meet me at the train station with DH, have already been out on the boats. First thing my daughter says was 'Mummy it tipped up and I drowned'. Clearly she hadn't actually drowned! But it turns out on questioning my husband they went out in the main harbour because it was too far to walk to the walled in bit. He then said he didn't know what I was taking about about the walled in bit anyway and was generally snotty/ignorant about it.
Turns out they went out in the general harbour area, not where I asked. In the dinghy at first which did not work (motor issues), had to row it back. Whilst FIL went back for oars husband had to secure the boat by hanging off an abandoned vessel in the harbour (for long enough that's he felt his arms might fall off - his words) with two kids bobbing about in it. Then they tried the kayak and managed overload and overturn it. Thank god they had buoyancy aids on. Kids like water but not competent swimmers (weekly lessons, but daughter still in little pool). Not used to the sea. It was cold & choppier than they thought it would be, but they continued. They failed to do something up properly on the kayak and water got in so apparently 'not their fault' it was overloaded. Kids a bit upset by the shock of falling into the water but the adults shoved them back onto the kayak and had to swim in back to shore. Got them back safely but I feel by luck rather then judgement.
Not a good introductory experience for the children. I told my husband that I was cross he'd ignored my wishes but didn't wish to spoil the weekend.
Then it turns out FIL spent the afternoon fixing the motor so they can go back out today. I've just said no. Kids not even keen, yesterday put them off. Son (6) said to
Me 'daddy lied and said we were in the safe harbour bit you told us about'.
AIBU? DH now has a strop on because I've 'embarrassed him' and don't trust him and his father enough to take the kids out safely.
Alternative is we leave early as I'm sticking with no today, it's horrible weather and I don't trust them to stay in the safe area - so left it as his choice.
Am I being unreasonable and spoiling their fun? I'm not a sailor or water goer so outside of my comfort zone.

Normally, I think people can be too risk averse when it comes to outdoor activities these days, but not in your case! First, your DC are very little and not yet competent swimmers, which must surely be the baseline for any open water activity.

Secondly, neither your DH nor your FIL sound remotely competent to use the boats themselves, never mind to supervise non-swimmers! I'm all for outdoor activities, but only if the people supervising are thoroughly capable and know what they are doing!

So no, YANBU.

I would either leave or do something with them on shore. It doesn’t sound safe at all. My views are coloured by losing a family member in similar circumstances. Life jackets won’t protect you from the shock of cold water, poor conditions or swimming ability.

I’m not sure even the walled bit sounds safe. I’d be really pissed off if that was my DH.

If they were competent sailors I’d have said YABU, but the fact he’s not admitted he’s made a judgement error would have really irritated me. Open water can be tricky especially when equipment fails and without proper knowledge- assuming they didn’t have radios or access to a safety boat, and aren’t regularly on the water. My husband is fully qualified to drive lots of boats with all the experience and he’s hesitant to take our baby out with us both, despite us both going with friends and having the ability to radio for a safety boat. We stick to rivers with baby.

Yes he is there father, and yes he gets an equal say - but when he’s not conscious of the risks I would be arguing a lot. Can you offer a few reasons like negative news articles which have caused you to worry, alongside the fact they are not confident swimmers. And try to placate with a safer river boat trip?

Mine doesn’t like feeling like I’ve “told” him something so I’ve had to readjust how I phrase things so he admits his mistake and decides not to repeat it.

We live near the sea - the children get open water safety lessons around 9/10 years old that include how to get out of upturned kayaks.
They are tought to swim side on to the beach if caught in undercurrents.
They are given first aid lessons
How to signal for help - etc

So you are right to be concerned

Yanbu - it doesn’t sound like your FIL or your husband have even the basic skills required to operate these vessels. Having two very inexperienced men in charge of boats they don’t really understand and small children who can’t fend for themselves is an absolute recipe for disaster. I would absolutely hold firm on this!

I would be massively pissed off you are definitely nbu in my opinion

God no! My ExH used to take my DC out in the sea on kayaks but he was totally competent, they could swim, modern lifejackets and he never went outside the boundaries I set, even when we split.
Both your DH and FIL sound incompetent and willing to ignore your boundaries....therefore you should not even let your children anywhere near the boat if they are going to ignore your wishes and risk safety.

No words. Yanbu still remember the Lyme Regis incident where a group of kids drowned whilst kayaking in the sea. I wouldn’t stop my kids doing that activity but only with competent experienced people and if they 12 plus and strong swimmers. Still sounds like they’ve succeeded in putting kids off the whole endeavour so rather shot themselves in the foot there.

I allowed my ds at 13 & 17 to paddle board on holiday, close to the shore,with life jackets, and a life guard watching, and they are competent swimmers in a pool, but the sea scared me because it's so different. So I can fully understand your thoughts, I'm with you all the way on this one. Every year we here of kids in dingy's getting pulled out to sea and worse.

He’s only embarrassed because you caught him lying. He and fil clearly can’t be trusted so he got one thing right.

Yanbu id be fuming- you don’t mess around with water.

YANBU. My 3yo is desperate to go sailing with his Grandad who is a trained RYA instructor who runs youth sailing courses, but he won't even consider taking him until he's 6yo, for safety reasons. It's just not worth the risk.

^And that would be on a relatively calm reservoir, definitely not on the sea!

Making a big thing about this and involving the children isn’t good for them. They need to be safe but they also need to have a sense of adventure.

Both you and your DH need to address this difference in parenting between you. It won’t end with sailing. You both have a fixed and intransigent position and are pulling against each other. It will harm and upset your children.

I've put my DDs on ponies, encouraged rock climbing, aquadiving, and am generally open to a bit of risk and some character building, but there's no way I'd have let them go out with out set up. Your fil doesn't sound nearly experienced enough.

Maybe, as a compromise, you could suggest that next visit the children, if they want to, go to an intro sailing club with your OH and fil, so they can all learn and enjoy together.

Most outdoor adventure providers will only take children out once they are 8 and competent swimmers. Unfortunately there have been several cases where inexperienced adults take children out on kayaks etc that they have hired and it doesn’t end well as the weather has changed or the current is stronger than expected so YANBU.

Yanbu. My son has been sailing on open water since he was 6 but I had made sure he was a strong swimmer first, there was safety boat cover and experienced instructors.

I think your DH and FIL have been quite foolish.

I am a massive fan of watersports and we live by the coast. But they are only fun if done sensibly.

Even kids who grow up right by the sea, 24/7, or whose parents work on /with boats aren’t cavalier like your FIL & DH.

If they’re so keen to get the kids on the water, why have they swerved around all the normal rules and traditional training methods? Because they’re selfish, ego-driven idiots. It would seem.

Lucky those kids have you to advocate for them. No chance I would let them out of my sight near these morons. Where’s your MIL in all this? Did everybody think this clusterfuck was a perfectly reasonable morning activity for small kiddos?

Only folk who know very little about kids and the sea would have pushed on as they did.

I have to say that I agree with PP that I would be concerned about DH and FILs competency and preparedness levels. Motors do fail but I would be concerned that this one hadn't been checked before going out. They should have had some form of rope or anchor that they could have used to secure themselves while FIL went back for oars (which they should have had with then from the start!). And they should have been prepared to call the RNLI if they weren't able to secure themselves/get themselves back ok.

The kayak may have capsized because not being unbalanced from taking on water but if they had tied whatever it was properly then it wouldn't have taken water on... All they seem to have done now is out the children off water sports.

I say all the above as someone who has taken a toddler sailing. I will only do that in equipment and conditions that one person can manage alone leaving the other person free to concentrate only on looking after the child/ren and making sure they enjoy themselves! I also make sure the equipment is thoroughly checked, set up for the conditions and will take more supplies (food/water/sunscreen etc ) than I could ever need! I also only go out in protected areas (like the tidal pool) and/or where other people are around who we can call too for help if needed.

So yeah, I don't think that taking them out on the water at their ages is a dreadful idea but I think it was badly executed and could have gone worse. (Disclaimer: even the most prepared person can get into difficulties at sea and need to call for help but that doesn't seem to have been the case here).

The key is that they are not competent swimmers! Children and open water if they are not able to stay afloat is a recipe for disaster....Your DH is bang out of order

YANBU at all.

I would feel exactly as you OP. I think what they did was dangerous and foolhardy.

But your DH doesn't and he has clearly grown up with his dad to be more risky and do more risky activities.

And he's the parent too, so he gets to decide when they're in his care. I would try to talk about it with him more but I think I'd still be on board with them doing the activity.

The bottom line for me here is that if you split up a judge is not going to prevent these minorly risky activities when they're away from you all weekend (but I still feel the same as you)

I would be very concerned that it is buoyancy aids and not life jackets. But yes I think just too young. I let DS get a sailing lesson this year (on a lake) but it was with an instructor and his dad and he had a life jacket.

If you are happy that the walled in area is safe can you join in or supervise that.

To add to my comment, not only will I only take DC out at young age with one adult for the boat and one for them, both adults have to be entirely capable of managing the boat in an emergency. And even then the conditions behave to be perfect and well within out comfort zone to manage.

It is just not worth the risk.

Yanbu. I would be furious with the both of them. Not only did they not stick to the ‘safer’ water, they also tried to get the children to lie to you.

Do not let them turn this on you. Let him strip. Better he feels embarrassed than one of both of your children died because of his and his fathers incompetence