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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jo Brand should be allowed to joke about anything and everything?

575 replies

noleftturn · 13/06/2019 18:04

I don't want to live in a world where we are all censored

OP posts:
RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:02

No, freedom of speech is important for everyone, as many people have said on this thread.

That, by the way, is one of the reasons that the purported "left" look so very "right" to a detached observer: the fascist urge to control, dictate not only action but also word and thought.

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:04

So you blame the ‘Leave campaign’ and ‘Brexit’ for a murder, but can’t pinpoint which individuals you’re referring to.

Like I said, you keep describing this as a murder and not an act of terror.

Perhaps because it’s an accurate description of events? One nutter with some bad ideas does not a terrorist attack make. He wasn’t guided by any over-arching ideology.

Its like freedom of speech only goes one way too. The right can say what they like, but get outraged about stuff like the Jo Brand comment.

Absolutely not. Freedom of speech is not a left/right issue. Everyone should be free to express their ideas, others should be free to criticise or agree, as the case may be.

PreseaCombatir · 14/06/2019 12:05

Not incoherent at all

Like I said, you keep describing this as a murder and not an act of terror

The first post of yours I saw began with:

Jo Cox's murder was because of Brexit

Now the issue is using the word murder
Which you opened with....

You’ve gone past incoherent now , you’re verging on unhinged

Zipee · 14/06/2019 12:05

Except no one says what you can think or say, but rightly calls it out. Pretending that calling peopleout for racism, sexism etc is controlling people's thoughts is one of the reason we are in this mess.

The right try to make powerful majorities feel like oppressed minorities and the use thr langauge of suppression, occupationand conquest to do so.

hilbobaggins · 14/06/2019 12:06

Summary of zipee’s arguments:

  1. zipee believes that Brexit is responsible for Jo Cox’s murder.
  1. Actually zipee doesn’t really believe that - he/she is only saying that Brexit is responsible for Jo Cox’s murder because “your side” says that Islam is responsible for Allu Akbar-shouting murderers.
  1. Except that actually it is “the truth” that Brexit causes JC’s death.
  1. Struts off with fingers in ears thinking he/she has landed a massive truth bomb on “your side”.

Jeez. What a dreary way to suck the life out of a discussion.

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:13

Pretending that calling peopleout for racism, sexism etc is controlling people's thoughts is one of the reason we are in this mess.

You can ‘call people out’ all you want if it suits you. But people are allowed to be bigots and homophobes and racists, you know. It sure as hell doesn’t make them pleasant people, but they’re allowed to be unpleasant if they like, and think unpleasant thoughts. You’re allowed to counter their ideas with your own.

You are not allowed to tell them they can’t speak. They have just as much right to their opinions as you do, however ugly you may think them. It’s only by talking, debating, discussing that the bad ideas will lose and the good ideas will win.

RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:15

I don't think Zipee is used to defending her point of view and it shows.

The idea of a principled and detached consideration of the view summed up in the thread title - devoid of moronic left/right posturing - is alien to Zippy.

Zipee · 14/06/2019 12:16

Jeez what a crap criqitique of my argument.

The Brexit campaign caused the environment in which led to Jo Cox murder. The man litterally shouted slogans about British indepence and freedom which was the langauge of the entire campaign.

Its an accurate point to make that Islam and Islamic culture is blamed for terrorism but the same does not hold for white right wing actions.

RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:18

Zipee, it was I who posed that question about Islam, and I asked it because I was genuinely curious. What do YOU think? Do YOU, Zipee, blame Islam for the London bombings, for example?

TheRedBarrows · 14/06/2019 12:20

“...Allah u akbar," do you say the people are dead because of Islam?”

Many people are dead in the cause of Islamic Fundamental Extremists.

As a lefty remainer I am sure this is true but am able to understand the distinction between murderous jihadis and the vast majority of rational peaceful Muslims who are themselves subject to discrimination and hate crimes. Due to both good old fashioned racism / xenophobia and because of being lumped in with jihadis.

Jo Brand is straddling the fault lines in a quake. We have Trans Tights Activists declaring that anyone who says sex is a biological state that cannot be changed (however fluid gender may be) is committing ‘literal violence ‘. If express publicly that we do not agree that a penis can be a female body part, we can be investigated by the police or lose our jobs.

Our Universities are places where our supposedly brightest and best minds have decreed that ideas not on message must be suppressed and their proposers be No Platformed, sacked and vilified on social media. With threats of actual violence.

The liberal left have been to blame here. Supporting a silencing of voices that challenge ideas.

People do not like to be shut up and silenced.

Whatever else went on in Brexit, whatever the economic and political pros and cons of EU membership, the failure to listen to various communities and the subsequent appalling vilification and personal insults to Leavers have been catastrophic in maintaining civilised debate.

The context in which JB’s comments were made is out of whack.

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:20

I don't think Zipee is used to defending her point of view and it shows

I still can’t understand what side I’m apparently on. She hasn’t answered any of the questions I’ve asked, just keeps bringing up more and more snippets that she thinks bolster her argument. It’s so much easier to write everyone else off as ‘hypocrites’ than responding to what they actually say.

RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:21

By London bombings I mean the July 7 2005 attacks.

TheRedBarrows · 14/06/2019 12:21

Much as I like the idea of Trans Tights Activists, I meant Rights....

RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:24

She says hypocrites because she can't or won't understand the point about personal responsibility, I think. And she's probably not used to thinking about basic freedoms, merely Party x=good, Party y=bad. Whereas if you care about human rights, it's plain that party x=party y!

RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:25

Lol TheRed

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:27

The Brexit campaign caused the environment in which led to Jo Cox murder.

You’d like this to be true, so you believe it. But you just can’t state this as a fact. You don’t know whether it would have happened anyway, or whether someone else would have done it, or whether it would have happened under different circumstances. And as I said before, the individual is responsible for the crime they commit. How far and wide do you want to cast your net of blame? Who else is equally responsible? Was this man incapable of independent thought, in your opinion, or did the Leave campaign make him do it?

The man litterally shouted slogans about British indepence and freedom which was the langauge of the entire campaign.

So what? Correlation does not equal causation. And that still doesn’t make anyone else guilty. You disagree with people’s politics, so you’re willing to blame them for a murder they didn’t commit?

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:30

Our Universities are places where our supposedly brightest and best minds have decreed that ideas not on message must be suppressed and their proposers be No Platformed, sacked and vilified on social media. With threats of actual violence.

Ah, the so-called tolerant left, which loves diversity of every other meaningless characteristic, but won’t tolerate diversity of thought.

Zipee · 14/06/2019 12:31

Ah but you see I didn't say leave voters were responsible, I said brexit and the campaign was. But nice try.

If people are dead in the name of extremist Islam then Jo Cox is dead in the mane of the extrmeist far right, which was whipped up by the nationalist langauge used in tje referendum.

The langauge you use about being silenced is interesting, who silences you? Farage has his own radio show and writes im nationalist newspapers, Tommy Robinson gets interviewed on TV, right wing views are expressed on TV, in newspapers ( actually all of the biggest selling ones) in rallies and in political campaigns. Who silences you?

The old "failure to listen to communities ""point is also ridiculous. The coomunities that have high levels of immigration voted overwhelmingly to remain. Its the monoculture ones that voted to leave.

See again you are making out like powerful majorities are being oppressed

There is a good guardian long read which looks at these myths about no platforming and the other allegations you make, and they are myths, I'd advise you to go read it
.

PreseaCombatir · 14/06/2019 12:34

If people are dead in the name of extremist Islam then Jo Cox is dead in the mane of the extrmeist far right

Well people only brought up people being dead in the name of Islam, because you said Jo Cox was dead in the name of the extremist far right.
So not sure how you can use that as the reason for saying what you did, unless you were arguing for the future 🤦‍♀️

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:35

Ah but you see I didn't say leave voters were responsible, I said brexit and the campaign was.

Again, who? Who is ‘Brexit? Voters? Politicians? Campaigners? Which people are you blaming, other than the murderer?

PreseaCombatir · 14/06/2019 12:35

*from the future

PreseaCombatir · 14/06/2019 12:37

No platform if is a myth. I know this because the fucking guardian told me.
I can’t even....

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:38

which was whipped up by the nationalist langauge used in tje referendum

You keep saying this, but it doesn’t make it true. Are people capable of making up their own minds and reaching their own conclusions, or are they so stupid that they can be manipulated into murdering someone? You’re saying the propaganda was just that good? That he bears no responsibility? They made him do it?

RiversDisguise · 14/06/2019 12:39

Zipee is confused, but if she regards the Guardian as a source of fact, no wonder.

Psst, Zipee, I'm extreme left-wing, and I don't blame the Koran for 9/11 anymore than I do Brexit for the death of Jo Cox.

IsabellaLinton · 14/06/2019 12:40

There is a good guardian long read which looks at these myths...I'd advise you to go read it

I line my rabbit hutch with that paper. Only use I can find for it.

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