Who was being unreasonable - vegetarian or host?

[neverendingflorist]

Going to try and keep this as short as possible.

Person A invited a group of people over for dinner, including person B who is a vegetarian. A didn't know B was a vegetarian at the time, but B let A know when accepting the invite. A said this was fine. A made lasagna for everyone for dinner, subbing the meat out for roasted veggies for B to make a separate dish. When dinner came round A explained to B what she had made for her and explained what it contained including parmesan cheese. B said sorry, she could not eat it as parmesan is not vegetarian. A said B should have really told her she could not eat parmesan as A thought vegetarians could eat cheese and wouldn't be expected to know these things as she hasn't cooked for vegetarians before. B said lots of things are not vegetarian that aren't just meat/fish and it would take forever to make a list of all things including which cheeses she could/couldn't eat. A thinks B has been very rude and B thinks A has been a poor host.

So who was being unreasonable? I am aware this is pretty much a non-event and should not have escalated in to a big disagreement, but I am interested on general opinions.

But they do eat animal products which have a by product of death. Which is why it's a load of bollocks.

Try having a look at the way a combine harvester works. If you read The Running Hare by Lewis Stempel there's a stomach-churning description of what happened when a terrier ran into the path of a combine his cousin was driving. It does that to everything in its path, and there's quite a bit of animal life in the path of a combine. So by that definition, wheat isn't really vegetarian either. Many of us make a compromise somewhere. It's best just to respect that compromise, whether it's the same as yours or not.

Dungeondragon it would be suggesting I thought they didn’t know what a vegetarian was, as vegetarians don’t eat any dead animal products! However if the host sounded a bit confused about what to make I would give more info. I live in a place where you fall over a vegan menu at every turn so it’s hard to imagine anyone being that caught out at vegetarianism.

Well said Belenus

agreed Belarus. I think that those choosing to reduce their meat and fish consumption, as far as they wish to take it, are fantastic - but I get fed up of the 'but they're not a real vegetarian' policing that gets chucked around.

I think a conversation about the cheese (was it only on the top or all the way through, could it just be scraped off? etc.) was needed here, and maybe a checking of the packaging as you can get veggie alternative hard cheese so it's worth just checking the labels before both parties go off the deep end.

At a dinner party there's always the risk that the host will serve something you don't like - I don't like fish, my (now veggie) husband only likes goats cheese, not cheddar etc. so there are times even when you can eat the food presented to you, that you'd rather not do so. Being grown up sometimes means eating something you'd rather not out of politeness.

Bet the host just hands out takeaway menus next time.

It does that to everything in its path, and there's quite a bit of animal life in the path of a combine. So by that definition, wheat isn't really vegetarian either. Many of us make a compromise somewhere. It's best just to respect that compromise

I'm sorry, I know the subject isn't a laughing matter, but that made me actually lol.
If vegetarians shouldn't be eating wheat just in case a terrier ran out in front of a harvester, what the hell are they left with?!
Fresh air and water at this rate lol

Lime in fairness they were referring to all the other animal life in the path of a combine harvester. I am guessing field mice for example. The terrier paragraph was to demonstrate what actually happens to those animals. And the point was that most vegetarians draw the line somewhere.

This thread

There are so many angles to take on this, such as:

Rennet is made from waste products, and they don't kill cows specifically for it, so it's really a philosophical question whether to eat it.
A product that already exists is infinitely more sustainable than a new product, so if a vegan or vegetarian person buys a pair of second hand leather shoes, again that is more sustainable than a new pair of shoes, regardless of the materials.
People are vegetarian, vegan, and all the other variations for all sorts of reasons. If your angle on vegetarianism is to reduce your impact, then even being a part time vegetarian would help towards your cause.

And so on...

The case in point is that A felt snubbed by B, and thinks B was being ungrateful. B was made a promise which wasn't kept and then was made to feel bad about it. I can't believe A would be so daft as not to ask whether the menu was ok when someone had dietary needs, whatever the reason, vegetarian, religious, allergy, medical.

Just so long as the lesson of the thread is that if you’re cooking for a vegetarian and you’re using a product with more than one ingredient*, if it doesn't say it’s suitable for vegetarians, it isn’t. Quite simple.

*unlike, say, a lettuce.

*B needed to eat it & just get over herself
*
If I did this for every meal that contained dairy, wheat and gluten I'd never be out of the bathroom!! Sometimes when it comes to your own health you have to refuse to eat things that others have made!! Yes being a vegetarian is a choice but I know that for the 5 years I was vegetarian it used to really irritate me when I was given animal products. I went to my ex SIL for Xmas dinner one year. Took my own quorn chicken fillet and had the veg, roast potatoes and Yorkshire puddings (previous to having coeliacs) there. They had been cooked in beef dripping. I'd eaten them before everyone told me and to them it was a huge joke. I eat meat and fish now but if I was cooking for someone I would ask if they had any dietary requirements and what they liked or disliked. Unless it was my Sisters nob of an ex fiancé and then he'd just get what he was given regardless of whether it was homemade or out of a jar and to like it or lump it because just because his mum and dad pandered to his every need I most certainly wasn't!! I did tell the silly twat the Béchamel sauce in his lasagna was homemade. It wasn't it was out of a jar

Took my own quorn chicken fillet and had the veg, roast potatoes and Yorkshire puddings (previous to having coeliacs) there. They had been cooked in beef dripping

See, that would really piss me off if I was veggie - to do the Quorn in beef dripping when you've brought your own food so they didn't have to go to any extra trouble would seem like a massive "fuck you" and done out of spite.

I'd eaten them before everyone told me and to them it was a huge joke
A*holes.

Sorry, just read your post properly you mean the veg and puds were done in beef dripping.
Seeing as they KNEW you were veggie, that still doesn't make it any better though.
It'd feel like it was done on purpose, any fool knows beef dripping is a meat product.

My husband is vegetarian but eats Parmesan (and haribo etc).

It would not have occurred to me to leave out Parmesan cheese for a veggie. I think the vegetarian was a bit u.

So if B or B’s child had an allergy to peanuts would A be forgiven for being dumb and serving almond sauce? If not then why is it okay for her to serve B cow rennet?

Unless almond sauce has peanuts in it (I don't think it does?) this isn't a good analogy. Peanuts are part of the legume family whereas almonds are tree nuts. Many many people with peanut allergies can eat tree nuts perfectly safely so almond sauce wouldn't be a problem.

Anyone with a serious allergy is likely to check the menu with the host anyway.

An allergy isn't a reasonable comparison. People who have allergies can die. People with food preferences don't (well maybe their souls die a little but they recover from that).

Dungeondragon it would be suggesting I thought they didn’t know what a vegetarian was, as vegetarians don’t eat any dead animal products!

Well no. It would be suggesting that people who consider themselves to be vegetarian have different ideas about what they can eat as evidenced by this thread!

Some “vegetarians” eat some meat products, either knowingly or unknowingly. But if somebody tells me they are a vegetarian. I assume they mean what they say and check packets!!!! I honestly don’t understand why this is an issue.

Can't see the moral difference between eating a tiny amount of rennet (animal by product but not the reason the animal was raised killed), and milk - which also involves plenty of animal death - what on earth do vegetarians think happens to old cows and male calves? They certainly don't retire gracefully in a pleasant field.
Yes I see the point of reducing intake of animal products for welfare and environmental reasons. But to upset someone who's made an effort for you, just to make a moral point, seems bonkers and illogical to me.

If vegetarians shouldn't be eating wheat just in case a terrier ran out in front of a harvester, what the hell are they left with?!

No. The point I was making is that if you refuse certain food because animal death is a by-product of its production, then you would logically refuse pretty much anything. But we don't, we compromise our logic. As Emma has said, the terrier was just an example. A large number of small mammals live anywhere that grain grows and are killed when grain is harvested. Whatever we eat has an impact on something. People choose to reduce this impact to various degrees.

Vegans avoid anything that exploits animals as far as possible, including leather, honey, wool, silk, various glues. Vegetarians avoid eating anything that directly causes animal death but are OK with dairy products, so long as they don't contain bits of calf stomach. And then there are, apparently, vegetarians who didn't realise that some cheese is made with animal rennet and where that comes from.

The point then is we all make compromises. Better just to respect that, IMO, and not try to foist calf stomach lining on someone who doesn't want to eat it. And if they politely explain to you what the problem is don't get your arse in your hand. Just offer them a salad or something instead.

@Hithere12 person B is not vegan. If person a had covered the lasagne with mozzarella they’d have eaten it.

But if somebody tells me they are a vegetarian. I assume they mean what they say and check packets!!!!

But the point is, as has been repeatedly made, is that a lot of people don't know they have to check packets and so don't do so. If you have no idea that cheese can contain meat products then it won't even occur to you to check. And, as has also been evidenced, the information on websites can be confusing.

Therefore, the onus is on the person with dietary requirements to make those requirements crystal clear and not assume that their host is going to know, or even know there's something to know, the ins and outs of their lifestyle choices.

Amazing how middle England hates vegetarians, isn’t it? Some of this thread reads like an episode of Top Gear! I can just imagine Clarkson going on about he hopes vegetarians wear face masks all the one in case they accidentally breathe in a gnat.

To be fair BertrandRussell - some of the hate appears to come from other vegetarians and/or vegans who feel that some just aren't doing it right, and are letting the whole side down.

And there's a fair amount of venom spat the ol' omnivores way . . . those dumb ol' omnivores. . .

My terrier comment was a joke, my sense of humour clearly isn't appreciated

I don't hate vegetarians - I'm married to one and the mother of another!

I do hate the way some vegetarians insist their way is the only way and also assume that the world and his wife should know all about it.