Who was being unreasonable - vegetarian or host?

[neverendingflorist]

Going to try and keep this as short as possible.

Person A invited a group of people over for dinner, including person B who is a vegetarian. A didn't know B was a vegetarian at the time, but B let A know when accepting the invite. A said this was fine. A made lasagna for everyone for dinner, subbing the meat out for roasted veggies for B to make a separate dish. When dinner came round A explained to B what she had made for her and explained what it contained including parmesan cheese. B said sorry, she could not eat it as parmesan is not vegetarian. A said B should have really told her she could not eat parmesan as A thought vegetarians could eat cheese and wouldn't be expected to know these things as she hasn't cooked for vegetarians before. B said lots of things are not vegetarian that aren't just meat/fish and it would take forever to make a list of all things including which cheeses she could/couldn't eat. A thinks B has been very rude and B thinks A has been a poor host.

So who was being unreasonable? I am aware this is pretty much a non-event and should not have escalated in to a big disagreement, but I am interested on general opinions.

@FamilyOfAliens

Your packaging is for Grana Padano cheese.

As I said in my pp, one of the differences between Parmesan and Grana Padano is that Grana Padano contains lysozyme but Parmesan doesn’t. So@LimeKiwior whichever poster it is who avoids Parmesan because it contains eggs doesn’t have to!

Quite right. I missed that (not wilfully - referring to my post upthread - I promise).
Excellent news for LimeKiwi.

I've just checked some of the packaging for Sainsbo's parmesans and equivalents online and it's very confusing. Their parmesan makes no mention of rennet at all, so unless you know you have to check for the V sign you would assume it's fine.

Their Basics Italian hard cheese (which we get for veggie DH and DC) says in the ingredients Vegetarian hard cheese. But no V anywhere, nothing about it being suitable for veggies in the Dietary Info section - that section is the same as for actual parmesan.

However, Port Salut does have 'suitable for vegetarian' under Dietary Info.

So - the labelling is very inconsistent. And as such, I think the onus is on the vegetarian to make all this clear. A vegetarian is far more likely to be aware of dubious labelling than an omnivore who never has to look at this stuff.

But if you are not a vegetarian, don't live with vegetarians and don't know that not all cheese is vegetarian, then you wouldn't even think of checking the packet, just like you wouldn't check the milk bottle or the egg packet. The only people who would check the packet are those who know already that some cheeses are not vegetarian. My Parmesan says on the back that it is not suitable for vegetarians - you wouldn't notice this if you were not looking, as it's not on the front, and you wouldn't think of looking if you didn't already know about rennet etc. So it's a kind of circular argument. Lots of people don't know that not all cheeses are vegetarian, my 54 year old husband and 17 year old son included, both of whom have good friends who are vegetarian.

I don't think either person was unreasonable - it's just an unfortunate situation and now A knows that some cheeses are not vegetarian so would check in future.

In the circumstances B could probably have picked out the roast veg and scraped off the sauce. Then if A had said anything could have commented - it was lovely but sadly I can't eat the sauce as it has Parmesan in it and that isn't veggie.

I'm allergic to peppers and someone once (having forgotten) produced a rice based dish with finely chopped peppers in _ I just picked out the big chunks of veg.....

Obviously the labelling applies to processed food. And yes- if bread doesn’t say suitable for vegetarians it isn’t.

Why is that obvious?!

Lots of people don't know that not all cheeses are vegetarian, my 54 year old husband and 17 year old son included, both of whom have good friends who are vegetarian.

I don’t think the problem is with non-vegetarians not being aware. I think the problem is with people saying “I’m vegetarian but I eat [insert non-vegetarian food]”.

Because then people who don’t have any reason to investigate what is and isn’t suitable for vegetarians just assume that because their “vegetarian” friend eats it, it must be fine for all vegetarians. That’s partly the reason why actual vegetarians wish people would be more clear when they follow a mostly meat-free diet, but aren’t actually vegetarian.

In the circumstances B could probably have picked out the roast veg and scraped off the sauce

No she couldn’t - this has been discussed upthread.

on the Sainsbo's website Emmenthal doesn't say anywhere that it is suitable for veggies. But if you put the veggie filer on it comes up.

Family I live with actual vegetarians who don't agree with you - DH would consider anyone who doesn't eat meat or fish veggie and would consider anyone like himself who extends that to all animal products to be a strict veggie. (And yes, I know both the OED definition and the vegetarian society definition. As they are not in agreement there is always going to be confusion.)

Indeed, I have friends who describe themselves as vegetarian who definitely have eaten Parmesan in restaurants with me so that further confuses the issue - they also definitely don't eat any meat or fish but don't check for example what chips from the chippie are fried in.

CassianAndor that is a vegan,animal products is vegan non meat eater is a veggie.

sorry - explained myself badly. DH considers anyone who doesn't eat meat and fish a veggie and anyone who doesn't eat meat, fish and animal by products a strict veggie.

Well, this has been an eye-opener to say the least...

I've now discovered that out of my repertoire of 3-4 snacks/meals that I offer DS's 'vegetarian' girlfriend many of them aren't vegetarian! I've always told her/ shown her what I'm planning in advance and she's always said 'yes, that's great, thanks' so perhaps she doesn't know about cheese either??

Sacla basil pesto -- nope. (But there is a veggie alternative)
Cheese sauce for pasta/ cauliflower cheese - nope
Sainsbury Margherita pizza - nope
Pizza Express Margherita - this is fine - Halleluya!
Chilli Mix (for veggie chilli) - doesn't say suitable and contains egg.

Do vegetarians not eat eggs either? I have one acquaintance who calls herself vegetarian but always has an omelette...

@LlamaDrama20 vegetarians do eat eggs. They don't eat any part of a dead animal.

The problem is that people, often vegetarians, aren't well-informed. I know some vegetarians who eat parmesan and Haribo etc. When I decline (because I'm a strict vegetarian) they are always shocked when I explain what rennet and gelatin is made of.

Parmesan contains the lining of a cow's stomach. The cow had to die. Therefore, it's not vegetarian. Anyone saying that the vegetarian should have eaten it out of politeness is being very unreasonable. Yes, the host didn't know, so it was a genuine mistake, but once informed, and could have easily apologised and offered toast or something as a last resort.

I explain to people that I don't eat fish, meat, parmesan or other cheese containing rennet. I explain that I don't eat gelatin or cochineal, that a lot of ice cream contains animal fat in the whey used. If I'm then given something I'm suspicious of, I check the packaging, and if the "V" symbol isn't there, I don't eat it. I don't think the host has a right to be upset, because I've made myself very clear.
In this case, the guest assumed too much knowledge on the part of the meat-eater, but that doesn't mean they should have had to eat something that was against their beliefs.

errr, we buy Sainsbury's Margharita pizzas! Which, again, I see aren't listed as being suitable for veggies but in fact are. And comes up if you filter for veggie pizza.

Haribo with parmesan on? Disgusting. That would make me sick and I'm not even a vegetarian

In this case, the guest assumed too much knowledge on the part of the meat-eater, but that doesn't mean they should have had to eat something that was against their beliefs.

Absolutely.

The problem is that people, often vegetarians, aren't well-informed.

Also true and, as you've said, can end in vegetarians eating things that they wouldn't if they were better informed. Once they know, they can change their eating habits if they want to.

It's a learning curve, surely.
There seems to be a spectrum of vegetarians through to vegans (including "strict vegetarians" "ovo-lacto vegetarians").

My vegan daughter gets called out on eating avocados because of the exploitation of bees. She says that she's doing her best and at least it's better than not trying at all.
Similarly with omnivores who try to cook vegetarian but sometimes slip up. At least they've tried and haven't thought a piece of wafer thin ham would be acceptable a la The Royale Family.

Honey isn’t vegetarian either because 5-10 percent of it is honeybee parts.

vegetarians do eat eggs. They don't eat any part of a dead animal.

But they do eat animal products which have a by product of death. Which is why it's a load of bollocks.

This is why I stopped being 'vegetarian' I still don't eat meat, rennet etc I just don't feel I need the title.

@magpie - eggs are chicken periods. They will lay those eggs regardless of whether there’s a rooster around to fertilize them; so they are vegetarian as last I was aware you don’t have to kill a chicken to get them. Milk is also vegetarian for that same reason.

Rennet and Honey (due to the way it’s manufactured) and gelatine are non-veg, and the only lazy / inept / useless vegetarians eat them. In fact I would go so far as to say they aren’t vegetarian if they’re eating those things.

B is in the wrong - she needs to be alot clearer. Not everyone will know that vegetarians cant eat parmesan and its very silly of B to assume this. Totally her fault. A tried her best to cater for a vegetarian.

Just as I might eat leftovers containing meat from my children’s meals if it meant not cooking another meal that day. The meat wasn’t killed for me. I haven’t contributed to the meat industry, I can live with that on my conscience

How the heck are you a strict vegetarian then if you'll happily chomp the meaty leftovers?!
I'm not veggie or vegan, but this thread is infuriating ME so Gawd know how actual veggies feel having to live with this crap lol

Cassian the pizza from the deli counter doesn't come up under the veggie filter though!
www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&productId=1163552&urlRequestType=Base&catalogId=10310&langId=44

Aargh! You can see why it's so confusing for an omnivore!

I haven’t read the full thread, however I imagine it’s a fairly mad one. I’m a veggie, but not a vegan. So I do eat milk, eggs, butter and cheese. I had no idea about this rennet thing in parmesan, but frankly, it won’t kill anyone as a one off will it? If someone had gone to the effort of cooking separately for you, you should have the good grace to eat it and not make a fuss. Even if you do know about rennet and are the type to read food labels in detail, you can’t expect other people to be the same way. So the vegetarian is BVU here and a complete PITA too, I would imagine. Don’t expect any further invites to that house.

Just as I might eat leftovers containing meat from my children’s meals if it meant not cooking another meal that day. The meat wasn’t killed for me. I haven’t contributed to the meat industry, I can live with that on my conscience
I totally get this.
Similarly, the lasagne had already been made. Not eating it was not going to help animal welfare etc.- surely it is then better to eat it rather than add to food waste. I say this as someone who doesn't eat meat. (I was once given a meat burger instead of the bean burger I had ordered in a burger chain outlet which I had been dragged into by DS. I ate it as I could see no point in it ending up in the bin- the deed had already been done).