Who was being unreasonable - vegetarian or host?

[neverendingflorist]

Going to try and keep this as short as possible.

Person A invited a group of people over for dinner, including person B who is a vegetarian. A didn't know B was a vegetarian at the time, but B let A know when accepting the invite. A said this was fine. A made lasagna for everyone for dinner, subbing the meat out for roasted veggies for B to make a separate dish. When dinner came round A explained to B what she had made for her and explained what it contained including parmesan cheese. B said sorry, she could not eat it as parmesan is not vegetarian. A said B should have really told her she could not eat parmesan as A thought vegetarians could eat cheese and wouldn't be expected to know these things as she hasn't cooked for vegetarians before. B said lots of things are not vegetarian that aren't just meat/fish and it would take forever to make a list of all things including which cheeses she could/couldn't eat. A thinks B has been very rude and B thinks A has been a poor host.

So who was being unreasonable? I am aware this is pretty much a non-event and should not have escalated in to a big disagreement, but I am interested on general opinions.

I said she should say that she’s vegan to avoid the host using things that are normally considered safe for vegetarians

Saying she was vegan wouldn't solve anything. As is very clear from this thread many people are confused as to what is or isn't vegetarian or vegan. So if she had said she was vegan she still risked being served something that goes against her moral compass. She would also have further narrowed down the field of what her host could offer - no emergency omelette for the vegan. Or, she could have said she was vegan and then sat there like a lemming when the cheese board arrived, eating nothing, or explaining that no, she was actually veggie and did the host know which cheeses were veggie and which weren't. And so on, and so on. Lies do not produce clarity.

As it is, by explaining that some cheeses are not vegetarian, because they require the killing of an animal in their production, she's opened up a dialogue and given out valid information. As to whether she's wrong and should be a vegan, well that's a whole other argument. You might think that but clearly she and many others don't and why try impose your beliefs on her?

I would have gratefully eaten it I’ve been vegi since I was 5 and have eaten many a well intentioned but gastly substitute with a smile on my face
The vegi was rude as she could have picked the top off it’s not like it was an allergy that was going to harm her

There are LOADS of things that aren’t vegetarian. It’s ridiculous to suggest B should have told A what they are. A agreed to provide vegetarian food, B should be able to trust it IS vegetarian.

Now which is easier to do? List 1001 items that aren’t vegetarian, or check the labels on the few things you are putting into a vegetarian meal?

This.

A wouldn't have expected a coeliac friend to have eaten a dish with "a few breadcrumbs"?

Nah seriously, that has happened!!!! The breaded fish no less! Or vege soup with barley in it. . . Sigh. And with Coeliacs - well, the effects can be something that The Exorcist would take as an example of how to make things look like a horror film. . .

Because obviously I didn't fucking realise that there was something to google

I think it’s your responsibility as the host to ensure the ingredients you choose are vegetarian. If A had googled ‘vegetarian lasagne’ for example, it wouldn’t have recommended Parmesan. Once you’re on notice that someone has a dietary requirement you should do a small amount of research to confirm you are adhering to it.

Many vegetarians do eat cheese containing rennet, that is a fairly strict form

No vegetarians don’t.

People who don’t read labels shouldn’t call themselves vegetarian, because Christ knows what they’re actually eating.

It is NOT ‘a strict form’ not to eat things that aren’t vegetarian like rennet & geletin.

It’s bloody ill informed, lazy and stupid to just declare you’re vegetarian then not read labels & check what you’re eating.

Yeah, sounds about right @TheEternalForever. I think I'd be more laid back in this situation from either end.

Probably as the host I would have immediately apologised profusely and found something else vaguely acceptable to eat.

The dairy industry is just as cruel as the meat industry!! They put chicks in blenders ffs!! And chain up cows which they forcibly impregnate again and again, and kill the male babies.

Really? Like, no-one ever comes on these threads and shares those new and fascinating facts ever!

If A had googled ‘vegetarian lasagne’ for example, it wouldn’t have recommended Parmesan.

You say that, I searched because if this thread and got some that do.

That says often. Not most. I can assure you if it’s the proper stuff it’s not.

@justarandomtricycle definitely agree. I'd have double checked while cooking for anyone with a dietary requirement and if it turned out I'd gotten it wrong I'd have apologised and searched through my kitchen to make something they COULD eat, rather than arguing with the person who has the requirement about it. I definitely wouldn't expect them to just sit down and eat something that was against their dietary requirements just because I'd made it though.

www.kitchentreaty.com/the-best-vegetarian-lasagna-recipe-ever/#recipe

Question? If an earnestly well meaning host googled this recipe, do you think they might assume that parmesan was therefore deemed vegetarian, by them wot knows better than them?

I said she should say that she’s vegan to avoid the host using things that are normally considered safe for vegetarians

Well, that'd limit the choice even more, wouldn't it?
Nice mushroom stroganoff comes out (milky) or the cheese platter with crackers.
"Actually, I could eat a little bit of that, I'm not really vegan, just thought it would be easier..."

Because if B wasn't told what A was cooking for them, why would they be expected to list a load of foods that aren't vegetarian? Are people expecting B to have sent A an article detailing hundreds of foods that aren't vegetarian? There are thousands of dishes that don't contain parmesan. If I went to somebody's house I'd tell them that I'm vegetarian, I wouldn't reel off a list of food I don't eat. And if they told me what they were making I'd say it sounds delicious, and if I need to mention something like the above I will do.

I agree with this. I honestly don't understand how B can be unreasonable when she had no idea that A was making lasagna; there are a million veggie dishes without Parmesan in it, why would she mention "use vegetarian cheese" when 1)she didn't know the dish A was making 2)that would have sounded patronising to remind her that she needed veggie cheese when she had just said she needed vegetarian food and 3)if she had to mention parmesan on the off chance that she is making a cheese dish, surely she has to mention the 1000 other obscure non veggie foods just in case?!

*SpinsterOfArts:

What if she'd been served a steak? Ungracious to decline because she can't magically bring the animal back to life by refusing to eat it?

I'm surprised by the intolerance in this thread towards people who are vegetarian for ethical reasons.*

Fair point, well made, Spinster. I can't fault your logic. Of course nobody would expect a vegetarian to eat a piece of steak. I hadn't really thought of it in that way.

I think my info on vegetarianism is perhaps a bit outdated. I'm older than many of you (in my 50s), and when vegetarianism became more prominent in the 70s, people used to say that vegetarians eat nothing that has a face, whereas vegans eat no animal products at all. The main difference at that time was that many vegetarians still ate cheese and eggs, but this seems to have changed over the years.

I also know vegetarians who occasionally break their own rules, as they have a very strong craving for meat, so they might eat meat once or twice a year. I see no issue with that, as it is hard to get everything you need nutritionally from a meat free diet, so maybe their body is craving something. Like I said, I admire people who live ethically, but we're all human and sometimes a bit of compromise doesn't harm.

Once you’re on notice that someone has a dietary requirement you should do a small amount of research to confirm you are adhering to it.

So it's too much effort for the vegetarian to make the host aware of the less obvious things that they can't eat but no effort for the host to spend time researching.

Sorry, bold fail in my above post. Top two sentences were made by SpinsterOfArts.

I don't think either A or B are being unreasonable here. Most meat eaters dont understand that a lot of things have animal by-product and I guess some wont do the homework to find it out either. B should just be thankful and polite about it and just say thank you for the effort but I cannot eat it, perhaps someone else would like it and stick to side dish etc. I am vegetarian and would not have eaten it, after all it contains enzymes from the stomach of an animal, whats the point in being a vegetarian if you consume this just to be polite! Its not about being vegan, its vegetarian and I didn't realise there were two types - relaxed enough that we will eat animal by-product and those who are strict who wont eat any animal by-product

I made dinner for a vegan a while back and asked her specifically "is there anything that isn't vegan beyond what's obvious?". I also messaged her in advance with a list of the ingredients I planned on cooking just to make sure. So, I don't think the host was U not to know, or the veggie was U not to eat it, but I do think it could have been quite easily avoided with a bit of communication before hand.

A should clock it up to experience and not invite B to dinner again. B should clock it up to experience and only accept invitations from vegetarians. A should consider whether all vegetarians are likely to react as B did and make dinner invitations on the basis of her conclusions.

Perhaps the host DID her research and came up with a 'vegetarian' recipe like this one?? (which includes parmesan)

recipes.sainsburys.co.uk/recipes/vegetarian/baked-conchiglioni-with-aubergine-meatballs

Vegetarians never claim to be perfect, being vegan is definitely ‘better. However, they’re doing significantly more than you are

Erm I don’t eat dairy, I occasionally eat fish and eat no other meat so by that logic I’m doing significantly more than most vegetarians?? Dairy is just as cruel as the meat industry, I’m not judging I just don’t understand the logic of person B clutching their pearls at Parmesan when they’re fine with things like having chicks put in a blender?

Human babies are often breastfed, it doesn’t mean it’s ok for them to eat their mothers flesh

Yes a human breastfeeding is the same as a cow being chained up and forcibly impregnated.

Perhaps it's realising that sometimes there's a lot of assumed knowledge? And a lack of realisation of ignorance? We don't know what we don't know, after all.

mbosnz. I take my hat off to you ever letting your DD eat outside of your home. I bet your Mum was so upset too. It’s truly worrying.

As for blogs like that, I guess it would lead someone to assume Parmesan was ok, but I would still read the label. In the same way if I googled a GF recipe I’d never assume a product in a recipe would always be GF.

So it's too much effort for the vegetarian to make the host aware of the less obvious things that they can't eat but no effort for the host to spend time researching.

Yes. Because as has been pointed out, it's a lot of effort to list all the things that appear vegetarian but aren't, and to attempt to 2nd guess all the things your host might be ignorant of, and you'd still probably miss some. Whereas it's fairly easy to think "I'll make vegetarian lasagne, better just check the ingredients are all OK".