to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

I think the issue with sex segregated spaces on the basis of making a woman who may be using it uncomfortable is really hard to define and address.
Bare with me as I know lots won’t agree but I think we all make snapshot assumptions based on appearance. A passable transwoman is likely to cause less fear to a woman than a fully transitioned transman.
It’s not as black and white as ‘XY’ ‘XX’ because in that situation you don’t know a genetic makeup.
I worked with someone for years who was in her late 50s, genuinely had no idea she was a transwoman for 2 years until I found out by mistake.
I think that also extends the issue that when it comes to this point, the only ‘logical’ reasoning comes to passability which of course sounds daft and unfeasible when presented but when considered it is almost the only thing that makes sense?

Im trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who has a fear of men in her space, I have been a victim of Male violance countless times but am lucky enough to not experience this fear and don’t want to be insensitive. However, say someone using a toilet and saw a transman with a beard and deep voice come in, I think it would be more of a trigger than someone who presented them self To be female.

I think this further damages the ‘biological segregation’ argument.

Most victims with a fear of men are unlikely to directly ask someone appearing Male ‘were you born female’ so the whole ‘id be happy with a transman’ doesn’t quite work.

I’m profoundly uneasy about Caster Semanya being discussed in this context. My understanding is that intersex people have made it very clear that they don’t want to be involved in the debate.

Agreed. Can we all agree to respect their wishes and keep them out of it here?

I'm I reading a different thread? I thought most people are say compete alongside your sex? Why would that ban trans men, but allow men and tw to compete where ever they want?

They are saying take part against your sex. But trans men would not be allowed to take part if on testosterone, which I imagine many are, in order to make their appearance more masculine, so what effect will that ban have on trans men? Is that a ploy to stop women from transitioning?

I wasn't saying that men and trans women could compete against women, I meant that men and trans women could compete in sport without having to change themselves.

That appears to be what posters are arguing for, yes. That trans men not be allowed to take part in any sports.

But surely you understand why that is? If they’re taking a banned drug, that increases their strength or speed over other females, then surely it’s only right that they can’t compete with said females. The same also would be true of them competing with males, as you can’t let one person who views themselves as a man, to take a banned drug, while telling other males that they can’t take the same drug? Though the fact that they are females that identify as trans, means because of the natural occurring disadvantages of having a female body makes it unlikely that they will beat males.

I actually feel really sorry for females that identify as trans, because they are the most disadvantaged in sports.

Taking testosterone is not a health requirement, and actually it has a negative impact on the female body. If they decide to take testosterone and cannot participate in some competitions as a result because it would give them an unfair advantage, it is entirely their choice. Presumably if they are men born in the wrong body, they don’t need testosterone anyway. It seems very transphobic to assume all trans men take or should take testosterone, knowing it has undocumented side effects.

*It seems very transphobic to assume all trans men take or should take testosterone, knowing it has undocumented side effects

Thats what I thought , in fact i asked this question earlier

Are you actually saying that a transman is only a transman if they are on testosterone

It would be up to the sporting bodies to decide whether this should be allowed

The problem with making access to sport a complex matter of measuring testosterone levels is that it could only ever work with elite sports.

What about my local amateur club? What about my daughters gym class? What about school sports events? Kids scholarships? They can’t do detailed examination of everyone as it would be totally beyond them. The only way to go is women (girls) and mixed, or a third space.

I think some posters are reading transphobia in comments regarding females who identify as trans, where absolutely none is intended. If it can be shown that a female taking testosterone has no advantages over females that don’t, then of course I’d be happy for them to compete alongside females. However since they don’t identify as female, they’re unlikely to want to compete against females?

Earlywalker

I agree entirely.

I have never been able to quite fathom how posters argue that women will be comfortable changing with a trans man, who could appear very masculine, as though they are a woman. To me, I would see a man.

But we can't even have this idscussion because the whole basis for any of these discussions appears to be banning trans women and men from women's spaces. The impact of trans men being in women's spaces can't be raised because it is a flaw in the sex segregation argument.

Sorry, I mean females that identify as trans taking testosterone

I think we need to stop viewing competitive sport, especially at an elite level, as some sort of human rights issue that anyone can access for any reason. It's inherently exclusionary of all kinds of people.

The best solution would be to keep women's sport for females only including transmen who have never doped and open up the men's category for anyone else including transmen if they have been on T.

This is unlikely to make transactivists happy though because it doesn't validate TW by allowing them in the female category and realistically neither TM or TW who have been on hormones are likely to make the grade against elite male athletes.

A huge part of the motivation to compete in women's sport for TW is the material gain of sweeping up scholarships, prize money, medals and sponsorship due to physical advantage. This solution would shut the vast majority out of that because they were only mediocre athletes in their natal sex category in the first place.

The only alternative solution is to have trans categories or something similar to the para-olympics. I think this is achievable with hard work and campaigning but based on the misogyny I see emanating from most TRAs I question how interested they will actually be in doing that once it no longer involves taking something away from women.

What I am very clear and resolute on is that no males should compete in the female category.

The impact of trans men being in women's spaces can't be raised because it is a flaw in the sex segregation argument

People are attempting to engage with this

You just don't like their answers

However since they don’t identify as female, they’re unlikely to want to compete against females?

But trans women don't identify as men and yet would be made to compete with men against their wishes. Surely this very debate is existing to stop people from being able to do what they want?

“Are you actually saying that a transman is only a transman if they are on testosterone”
Well, i’m not. But a trans man not on testosterone wouldn’t have a hole in hell of competing on equal terms with natal men. So it’s not really an issue.

But we can't even have this idscussion because the whole basis for any of these discussions appears to be banning trans women and men from women's spaces. The impact of trans men being in women's spaces can't be raised because it is a flaw in the sex segregation argument.

Then surely a third space would be beneficial to females that identify as trans too? They would be able to use a space that is welcoming to all that are trans and they could also share those spaces with others who have no concerns about mixed sex spaces. How could that be a bad thing? Everyone would benefit.

Well, i’m not.

Neither am i

Earlywalker most people agree that additional facilities would be an easy way to solve the toilets/changing rooms issue. This is something that could actually be achieved fairly easily.

Oops posted too soon

I agree that without male levels of testosterone that it would be a struggle to compete

But trans women don't identify as men and yet would be made to compete with men against their wishes. Surely this very debate is existing to stop people from being able to do what they want?

Putting the testosterone to the side for one minute, are you denying that males who identify as trans have a physical advantage over females as I said in my previous post. Do males and females have the same size of heart & lungs, same bone and muscle mass, same width of hips that give them the same length of stride, etc?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

It's not that I don't like the answers it's just that the answers are in direct opposition to other arguments that I see on here.

So when it comes to sex segregated spaces I always see that one of the reasons why trans women can't be allowed in female spaces is because some women will avoid them because of religious or privacy/dignity reasons and so therefore we have to segregate on the basis of sex.

Except that in the case of trans men, they may look exactly like any other man. So we will then have people who look just like men changing with women, who may not want to, or be able to be around men.

So that isn't me not liking your answer. That's me saying, hang on, how does this work with your argument?

But trans women don't identify as men and yet would be made to compete with men against their wishes. Surely this very debate is existing to stop people from being able to do what they want?

And here we have it. This is what it's about. Entitlement. Why should a man be able to declare himself a woman and compete against women? What about women who want to compete fairly against other women? Should they be allowed to do what they want? Or is that only for men?

I think we need to stop viewing competitive sport, especially at an elite level, as some sort of human rights issue that anyone can access for any reason. It's inherently exclusionary of all kinds of people.

I agree. I also think (virilised) DSD XY athletes shouldn’t be competing against women. Elite women’s sport needs to be protected.

I get your point Decomposing but this thread is about suggesting possible solutions, is it not?

So we've said already that additional facilities will sort out the toilets/changing rooms situation.

We've said that currently transmen cannot compete in sport if they are taking testosterone because it's a banned drug so that needs looking at by sporting bodies.

I read an interesting article by an academic at Melbourne university, who said that her uni had created really excellently resourced 'third space' bathroom facilities. The idea being that they can be used by trans people, trans allies and anyone who doesn't mind sharing toilets/cloakrooms with someone of the opposite sex, while single sex spaces remain.

I appreciate that requires financial investment and a re-jigging of space. This solution does though make it very clear that women's facilities aren't a 'catch all' for every category of person who is vulnerable, but that they're specifically for women.

Surely this very debate is existing to stop people from being able to do what they want?

I might have misunderstood your comment, but isn’t a fair society built around not always letting people do what they want?