to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Curious

EarlyWalker said:

"So 40 odd years ago, gay people were called ‘pedophiles ’ and all sorts because it didn’t make sense to them as the only explanation was ‘a feeling’ "

I'm pretty sure that research existed 40 years ago. That's why I cited it.

I was a gay rights activist 35 years ago. The research was there.

Incidentally, and this is for another thread- women were foot soldiers for men then too.......

Earlywalker
Think about this for a moment. If a 'female' brain can exist in a male body, it means there's no such thing as a 'female' brain, because it can exist in male bodies as well as female bodies.

I think it is quite plausible that a biological cause for gender dysphoria may be found.

We know that in utero the foetus' brain is exposed to the effects of hormones. Who's to say that in some cases the balance of hormones is more in line with those of the opposite sex to the foetus and that has an effect on the developing brain?

We know that sex hormones affect our brains, so why is the idea of a male or female brain so ridiculous? Our bodies are complex organisms and so many things can go wrong. Sometimes only a tiny variation can make a huge difference.

I don't know how anyone can be so absolutely certain that there is no truth in the idea that some people are "born into the wrong body".

We know that in utero the foetus' brain is exposed to the effects of hormones. Who's to say that in some cases the balance of hormones is more in line with those of the opposite sex to the foetus and that has an effect on the developing brain?

So men get their brain wash hitting them suddenly at middle age?

Aye right.

Maybe they've supressed their feelings until then? And we are now seeing many more children expressing this so maybe it is something present from before birth?

I don't know the answers which is why I am prepared to keep an open mind until more is known about it.

Maybe changing hormones during middle age causes latent effects to become apparent? Maybe falling levels of testosterone unmask a more feminised brain?

Who knows? We know so little about how the brain works.

We know that sex hormones affect our brains, so why is the idea of a male or female brain so ridiculous?

What is ridiculous is that if brains are in some way 'sexed', how does one end up in an opposite sex body? If a 'male' brain is found in a female body, it's no longer a 'male' brain, it's just one that has attributes which are more commonly found in males. In order for there to be 'male' and 'female' brains, every single brain would have to conform to those types, with no overlap. Nobody has found any attribute for which this is true.

The idea of a 'female' brain, which was unsuited to education or participation in politics, business etc, is what kept women confined to the home for centuries. It's not a holy grail, it's a regressive concept.

But that's because you are taking the terms lady brain etc to extremes.

I'm not saying that there are obvious structural differences. I'm just saying that sex hormones clearly affect aspects of our brains. If a male foetus' brain is affected by larger amounts of female hormones than usual why is it impossible that they might develop a brain that somehow gives signals that it is female but within a male body?

Just because science can't yet identify something it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Whatever brain people have, it still doesn't entitle the sexes to be mixed in sex segregated areas.

The reason for this is that it would remove safeguarding and allow all male bodies access. Including those who want to prey on and harm women and children.

If a male foetus' brain is affected by larger amounts of female hormones than usual why is it impossible that they might develop a brain that somehow gives signals that it is female but within a male body?

Yes I am absolutely sure Pips Bunce has a recurrence of lady hormones from the womb on a lady day and reverts back to manly hormones on man day.

Or it is a philia? Hmm...

For example, let's say this person walks into the female communal changing area at the gym.

Is this person

a) a male
b) a transwoman
c) a transman

You can't tell right? You don't know.

Is this person

a) safe
b) dangerous

You can't tell right? You don't know.

What do you do?

a) be too afraid/embarrassed to change in front of them and leave
b) ask them if they are a male, transwoman or transman
c) speak to staff
d) ignore them unless/until something bad happens then report

why is it impossible that they might develop a brain that somehow gives signals that it is female but within a male body?

Maybe that is what gender dysphoria is. But it's still a disorder, because the feeling that your healthy body is 'wrong' is not a normal, healthy state. And since people can't change sex, it's a problem for those people.

But as for sex-segregated spaces and sports, these are there because male bodies are different from female bodies, not because male brains are different from female brains.

why is it impossible that they might develop a brain that somehow gives signals that it is female but within a male body?

Maybe that is what gender dysphoria is. But it's still a disorder, because the feeling that your healthy body is 'wrong' is not a normal, healthy state. And since people can't change sex, it's a problem for those people.

But as for sex-segregated spaces and sports, these are there because male bodies are different from female bodies, not because male brains are different from female brains.

You are male or female before you ever have a brain.

The moment one of your father's sperm met your mother's egg - your destiny as female or male was decided. The brain came long after.

There also is a difference between male and female brains - in every cell. The male brain will be full of cells with Y chromosomes, and the female brain won't have any at all. (a vanishingly small percentage of people with sexual chromosomal disorders that wouldn't fit into 'Y or no-Y' are rare enough to be an individual consideration).

A male brain that likes pink and dresses and lights up a certain way on an MRI scan, is still a male brain.

Gender is a feeling.
Sex is biology.
They are not the same.

If a male foetus' brain is affected by larger amounts of female hormones than usual why is it impossible that they might develop a brain that somehow gives signals that it is female but within a male body?

It's not female. At most it's feminine.

Female means something. It means of or denoting the sex who bares eggs.

If you ain't bearing eggs, you ain't female.

This really isn't difficult.

(And yes, some women don't have eggs, but then they will be treated for not producing eggs. Not escorted from the building because they are male and not producing eggs).

Talk to a transwoman. They know nothing about being female.

why is it impossible that they might develop a brain that somehow gives signals that it is female but within a male body?
It's not the brain we are wanting kept out of womens spaces, its the body

Yes I understand that reasons for the dysphoria are separate to the practicalities.

How would the brain know it was female? What would it be comparing itself to? It may feel ‘wrong’ in a male body but that does not mean it feels female.

And yes, some women don't have eggs

And a bicycle without wheels is still a bicycle.

So what can be middle ground that allows the OP's original 4 questions to be answered?

To me, this question is like asking 'what is the middle ground between anti-vaxxers and medical evidence for vaccination'. Or 'what is the middle ground between 99% of scientists and climate change deniers.'

What the 'personal freedom at all costs for one group in society' crowd are arguing is extreme. They are extremists. Look back over this thread and see the number of times they've acknowledged natal women's needs, and tried to come up with solutions that are fair to natal women.

The only ''middle path' I've heard from the 'other side' is the one that makes a distinction between males who haven't had surgery on their penis and testicles, and those who have, with those who have being presented to us as the 'safe transsexuals'. Still socialised as blokes though. Still feel entitled to the very few female specific spaces that exist.

A very, very few transsexuals are attempting to live with integrity towards themselves and others, acknowledging their male bodies and male socialization, and as part of that acknowledgement, not feeling entitled to the very few female-only spaces and resources. They live 'as women' otherwise.

To me, that's the only actual middle path, and you can't legislate integrity, more's the pity.

Ironically, the trans males who have made a decision not to invade female spaces are the kind of trans males who pose the least risk to our safety, privacy and dignity.

Anyhow, this conversation - where plenty of people offered suggestions for meeting both needs, and all were shot down as 'offensive', 'utopian', 'uneccessary' - just further proves to me there will be no middle path.

Because we already had one, and it was rejected.

Instead there will be a winning group, and a losing group. I am pretty sure that women will be the losers. No-one will notice. The women who don't care about sharing their spaces will continue to have a public life. The women who do care will have less of one. We won't hear from female prisoners, or from women in refuges. And the media will continue to fail in it's job of presenting both sides of a story, so the only narrative most people will hear is the triumphalist one of the genderists.

If you have an otherwise healthy body, that your brain is telling you is wrong, your thought processes are disordered.

Why are your thought processes disordered ? Might be a neuro quirk in your brain, might be a symptom of a psychological disorder, might be environmentally induced. Might be internalised homophobia, or a developmentally acquired reaction against a homophobic family or culture.

(Nobody actually knows - there are several hypotheses, none of which have been established as a cause, and most of which rely on poor quality studies. The 'brain sex' studies, for example, forgot to control for homosexuality. Sample sizes are small, controls are lacking, a high % of participants are lost due to drop out...people are fooling themselves if they think there's data out there that 'proves' female brain in male body. There isn't. It's just a suggestion, that unfortunately reinforces sexist ideas women have been trying to move society away from).

What that thought - 'my body is so wrong, I need to have a (male/female) body, in the absence of any physical ailments in that body' - is NOT, is correct.

Sometimes people can't change the incorrect thought process. So we change the body. It's quite barbaric actually, and shows how little we know of the mind and its disorders.

Often people do find other ways to reduce, cope with, or rid themselves of those incorrect thoughts. It would be great if we could listen more to those people, and put research energy into less invasive treatments.

Theories around male/female brains still don't answer the question, why is it more helpful - to society generally and to women and girls specifically - to segregate based on self reported brain sex than the actual, physical, obviously sexed body

How is it more helpful, or less dignified, to use facilities designed specifically for the sexed body than facilities that really have nothing whatsoever to do with a theoretical, subjective brain sex?

I don't think that knowing why gender dysphoria occurs is helpful in deciding practical considerations such as segregating toilets, changing rooms etc. Those practical issues still need to be solved and I think 3rd spaces are the only solution.

I do think an understanding of how and why it happens is important going forward though so that as a society we can treat people with GD better than we currently do.

Surely though, (and this is all hypothetical) if it turns out that transpeople are all “suffering” from gender dysphoria, rather than actually being born in the wrong body, then the way society interacts with them should be different? We don’t make fundamental changes to our world to accommodate other dysphorias- why would this one be different? Generally speaking it’s irresponsible to collide with dysphorics who feel compelled to damage their healthy bodies- why is gender dysphoria different?