to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Self ID doesn't make natal women's spaces safe for transwomen, it just makes it less safe for women - natal or trans.

A 3rd space self ID'd doesn't create a safe space.

The only way to create a safe space is to tackle toxic male behaviour and that sadly won't happen, especially as TRAs appear to have no interest in campaigning for it. If they did not doubt natal women would join them in that fight.

If they did no doubt

Surely though, (and this is all hypothetical) if it turns out that transpeople are all “suffering” from gender dysphoria, rather than actually being born in the wrong body, then the way society interacts with them should be different?

This is interesting. If someone has conversion disorder - as an example I had a case of someone who was convinced they were blind in one eye but wasn’t on objective testing - the recognised approach is to not dismiss it as “you’re making it up, there’s nothing wrong with you” as that just makes it worse. Instead it’s about exploring the reasons why, helping with rehabilitation, but also avoiding unnecessary interventions and validation (for example stopping a charity from spending 25k on a guide dog for them ). It’s a complex issue to approach.

I'm pretty sure that research existed 40 years ago. That's why I cited it. I didn't say it wasn't. I addressed a different part of the post!

It’s a complex issue to approach. Yes, especially as TRAs have rejected the medical approach of trying to understand, ameliorate the dysphoria, so kindly helped out by the WHO! The only medical help TRAs will accept is body modification - the guide dog, if you will - and the world fully accepting them as fe/male (or, blind to continue the analogy)

Those practical issues still need to be solved and I think 3rd spaces are the only solution.

...which is what women already suggested years ago and were slammed for being massively transphobic.

Are you transphobic, Decomposing?

I think 3rd spaces are a compromise. No one is going to get exactly what they want so compromises are going to have to be made.

I am uncomfortable with people having to "out" themselves by using a 3rd space but hopefully they will be used by lots of people rather than just trans men and women.

Have you not been listening?

TRAs REJECT the idea of 3rd apces. They REJECT modifications of female spaces. They REJECT everything other than BEING WOMEN!

So what compromise can there be? Oh yes! Women, budge over...

Ok, they reject them. And?

We don't do everything that other groups insist happen. Society has to work for all members - I think a 3rd space helps everyone, including parents with children of the opposite sex who don't want them to use changing rooms or toilets alone, or mixed sex couples where one might need help, so they don't need to only be used by transgender people.

That's the bloody point!

You keep saying YOU think 3rd spaces are a compromise that will, hopefully, solve the issue.

But TRAs reject them, so won't use them. So they won't solve the TRA problem!

What women, with or without kids, choose to do is not the issue.

If they reject them and women continue to be vocal about their concerns (which is the most likely outcome) people will eventually get tired of the claims of transphobia because it's obvious that it's not transphobic to keep sex segregated spaces for the privacy, safety and dignity of women and children.

In the meantime, more and more people in mainstream will hear about it and the backlash against the TRAs demands will be stronger. This could encourage those transpeople who do want a third space to speak out in favour of it and their campaign will be backed by the majority of the population.

Regarding sport, it may be possible to let transwomen compete with women but not against them. So they can take part in most of the events and their results be recorded in a third category. So, for example, you could have winner in the women's category and winner in the transwomen's category, all at the same event. This wouldn't work for team events so something else needs to be thought out for that.

Regarding sport, it may be possible to let transwomen compete with women but not against them. So they can take part in most of the events and their results be recorded in a third category. They could also do that in men's events... but they won't because...

We, DH and I , discussed this last night. I am looking forward to the next Olympics. If we are right in our thoughts that TW will seek and be accepted to compete as women in some events then whole world will see it!

It will only happen once ad will be given a special name - The Olympics of Shame maybe!

Realistically, nobody is going to spend money on 3rd spaces unless we actually have evidence that they will be used. And the evidence (cf Hamstead Ponds) is that they won’t be. I wish there was a way of canvassing opinion from the “ordinary trans person in the street” because I would put money on them not agreeing with the extreme viewpoints any more than most people do. The only transperson I know well enough to have this sort of conversation with is too young really- I don’t think it would be appropriate.

The Hampstead Ponds decision has not been challenged in law though. I think if it was that would shine more spotlight on the problem and the need for third spaces.

Self ID is not law yet. People, institutions, governments are all forgetting that. They are not above the law.

I am very late to this thread and haven't got through all of it, will go back and read the last 10 pages or so when I can. I am very interested in these issues but not
very knowledge unfortunately, I am in Ireland and have not personally been impacted by either side of the trans debate. Please forgive me if my musings are daft. The third space, which I agree is necessary, whether it be bathrooms, sport or anything else, only works if everything is divided by sex, that for me is the nub of the issue. Can I ask, is there an actual legal definition of sex? As in an xy is a male and an xx is a female (leaving intersex out of it for now) and if so, then surely everyone must agree that sex cannot be changed. Gender of course can be as fluid as required. If there is no legal definition of male or female, can one be implemented, based on science, medicine, whatever? If a child could actually change sex it makes sense that it would be done before puberty, but if it was agreed that the child could merely change gender, not sex, then there is no advantage really to transitioning early, because 'passing' better might be preferable, but the child would never really change sex successfully anyway no matter how early it was done. If children were told this 'truth', that they can identify and dress however they want without fear, derision or discrimination but they would retain their sex, would they be less likely to go down the surgery route, given that they will lose so much because of it. (Fully functioning sex organs and fertility). TRA's and gc people will never agree on these issues, either a trans woman is a woman or they are a man, there is no middle ground, (Transwoman isn't a middle ground), all the debate in the world won't change that.

They could also do that in men's events... but they won't because...

Yes but this could be seen as a reasonable compromise. The more they reject our solutions, the more unreasonable they appear and the less support they will have to intrude on women's spaces. Shine that spotlight on it, let the whole world see how demanding they are. Let it get to a point where all the reasonable transpeople can come forward and say, yes that's great, we'd be happy with third spaces and sports categories, let's do that.

I mean if they are saying there are more than two sexes then we need more than two spaces and more than two categories so it's completely in line with transthink anyway.

I don't want women to have to be reasonable about female spaces. But yes, as I said, the next Olympics will probably mark a great change in public opinion. So temporary accommodation, enforced as it is, is probably a good way to go... for that one moment in time!

if they are saying there are more than two sexes then we need more than two spaces and more than two categories so it's completely in line with transthink anyway. Now, now. Don't apply logic You'll only heart your girly pink brain

I think most women are happy to be reasonable with reasonable people. It's the extreme that's causing the problem.