to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

“If women can't dope, but have to race male bodied people with T in a male range and a virilized body, what do you suggest to even out the competitive disadvantage then ?”
I don’t know- that’s a bit what the thread’s about!

I mean, is T bad for females or not ? If it's bad for females, why would we want transmen to take it ? If it's good for transmen to take it for an entire lifetime, why is it bad for sportswomen to dope up for competition ?

I personally don't want any females doping on T, because of the health issues that arise, but if we're living in the hormonally mediated reality, why exclude female athletes from making that choice ?

Of course doping with T is terrible - although no-one seems terribly fussed with transmen do it, so.... Erm, that's because they choose to do so, for their own reasons, not dependent upon any outside influence. And many people DO make a fuss about the long term effects, once they know about them!

Totally different for women to have to dope with Testosterone to have any chance in female sport! And it wouldn't give them parity, they'd still be at a physical disadvantage!

I did suggest upthread that T+V rule would be good. If you have been virlized in the past via male puberty and you have T in the male range, you can't compete with women. That allows a tiny % of TW to compete with women.

Well, I dunno. All I know is that if same gender sporting competition is a thing now, someone is going to have to come up with a way for female athletes to remain competitive.

Otherwise you get the mens' competition not affected at all and the women's competition just dominated by males too! It's like going back in time to when women couldn't have their own sports leagues and competitions.

Maybe some of the pro gender people have suggestions ?

Caster Semenya is not a natal woman, just as a point of fact. She's a natal man with a DSD.

Janes That is what the pro gender camp want. Why wuld they change it?

As a woman I don't want 'same gender' anything. That's anathema to me. Same sex yes! Those 2 words define the 'battle lines' that Bertrand is trying to find a way to dismantle.

Pro-gender segregation or no segregation in sport people - what are your suggestions for how natal females can remain competitive in their sport against women who went through male puberty and retain male level T ?

what are your suggestions for how natal females can remain competitive in their sport against women who went through male puberty and retain male level T ? For me that's easy. Men don't compete in womens sports.

BertrandRussell

You missed
How can we protect children from being transitioned by taking drugs that will irreversibly damage their bodies.

It should be the simplest of answers but it is worth putting in to the mix so that it doesn't get forgotten.

1. Spaces where women need space with only women need to be classed by sex only. If female presenting males need similar spaces then these need to be created separately.

1. Record crime by sex. Also record the gender identity of the criminal. Then statistics can be produced for both. Gender identities being a record of a person's feelings, sex being their biology.

1. Mostly, keep sports separate by sex. I don't agree with medication being a requirement for anyone to compete. For more difficult cases - trans people and people with intersex conditions, strength/weight/testosterone categories could be created as already used in Paralympic sports.

1. Decisions about who you want to form relationships with are personal. It can be based on whatever criteria you like. This needs to be respected on both sides, so people don't need to say anything more than a polite "sorry I am not interested" which should not be challenged.

Relationships are not like employment situations - where obviously discrimination should not occur and can be challenged legally.

samphire, it's easy for me too, because I don't think males should be competing with females in most sports (safety, competition), but plenty of people on mumsnet do (the ones who call y'all transphobic), and so I would like to know what their solution is ? I assume that those people don't want to take the right to compete on a fair playing field away from females, so they must have something in mind to reduce female disadvantage in same gender sport competiton. I'd like to know what that is!!!

All of those issues are already covered by equality legislation; the problem is we need the political will to enforce it.

Women benefit from the protected characteristic of sex, and trans people by that of gender reassignment. One should not overrule the other, as women have needs based on biology.

It is a mistake to think that the legislation is out of date, or needs to be removed. If you think that a right shouldn't exist it just means you don't need it, and that is the definition of privilege.
The way we can most fairly resolve any conflict while affecting the least number of people is to provide a third mixed sex space or service.

dancingcamper those are very sensible suggestions. I doubt they will be acceptable to TRAs or even those who call themselves trans-inclusive feminists as they don’t allow for TWAW. The debate has got completely entrenched so there appears no solution - neither side feels they can, or could, give on the issue of whether TWAW or not. We are seeing this sort of polarisation without nuance across all issues lately. It’s worrying.
I’m not sure what can be done. For me, I’m happy to accept TW in any situation where sex based protections aren’t affected and to treat them as I treat women (ie as I treat all people).

The problem always come down to do we need sex or gender segregation.

Some think sex, some think gender. Some maybe think a mix of both.

We needs to examine why we have 'man' and 'women' spaces in the first place. We have to ensure that facilities, crime stats, and anything else remain fit for purpose.

I'd like to know what that is!!! .... let us be patient!

“For me, I’m happy to accept TW in any situation where sex based protections aren’t affected and to treat them as I treat women (ie as I treat all people).”

Yes- that’s my position too. But it’s not going to work as things stand- the Hamstead Pools issue is, in my opinion, a really good proxy for the discussion.

I'd also like to know the reason people believe that crime stats should be recorded by gender identity and not sex, while I'm impatiently thinking of questions :) Another way of putting it might be - why is sex irrelevant to crime data ?

To me, Chesterton's fence is at the heart of all this - understand what you propose knocking down, understand why it exists in the first place, make sure what you build in its place is truly an improvement!

I have two kids with diagnosed GD - I'm open to a good argument! But it has to be convincing. Opportunity to change a mind here, if you have a ripping argument as to how the trans inclusion fence is a better fence for all.

I think the only way forward which doesn’t involve capitulation by one group or the other is the complete decoupling of sex and gender. And all of us have to tick two boxes. Then some things can be “sorted” by sex- that is the sex we were born into, and others by gender- how we identify. Of course there is another can of worms being opened here........

Along side this I would like to see how sports bodies will address the issue of natal women who happen to have very high levels of testosterone (like Caster Semenya)

Caster is not a natal woman.
Just want to point that out.

And the whole intersex and testosterone in women is being researched and dealt with legally as we speak... Caster Semenya has had the ban lifted temporarily whilst CAS are chacking they followed their own procedure to the letter, to ensure the ban is legal and binding.

No matter how we might feel about Semenya, that issue is being addressed and WILL have knock on effects for TW in women's sports!

Bertrand, I could certainly see an optional gender identity box being an accomodation for people with GD. Someone like my kid could tick M (male) + TF (transfeminine), whereas someone like me, who doesn't have a gender identity, just a sex, could just tick F (female). And my other kid could check F (female) and NB ( non-binary).

I suppose there are issues around further codifying something so subjective as gender identity.

And I'm unsure as to what broader purpose one would gather info on gender identity. I mean, number are good, I guess....it would be interesting to look at say, the rise in the number of F who are also TM or NB.

1. i dont know, my initial thoughts would be to have make female and gender neutral for things like toilets, changing rooms should be full of cubicles, and it very clearly marked that the changing area is multi sex. This would not work with single sex shops, like phase 8 or monsoon so exemptions should possibly be used for that. Rape centres and refuges should have single sex provision as it already does

2. crime recording should be by natal sex

3. sports should be by natal sex and maybe a third category that everyone can do

But thats my initial thoughts and im open to workable alternatives

think the only way forward which doesn’t involve capitulation by one group or the other is the complete decoupling of sex and gender. And all of us have to tick two boxes

Yes, i dont really see why this is an issue

I have said before on other threads that I think sex and gender should not be interchangeable and be completely separated.

Everything should be recorded and divided by sex but there should be an option to declare gender identity. And it should be totally socially acceptable to gender identify along a broad spectrum.

Shoving trans people in with women to protect them only masks the problem of the male violence they’re try to escape and makes it worse by technically removing any of the gate keeping that made that space safe in the first place. Let’s tackle the male violence.