to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

just that the answers are in direct opposition to other arguments that I see on here

that will be the lack of a hive mind

Ive never argued differently to my first post on this thread

I dont think what ive posted is unreasonable...but no one listens when you are just trying to find a middle road

I assume it’s because tribalism is much more fun...but I’m much happier in the middle

That sounds really whiny

S1naidSucks

I've always supported a third space. But whenever I've said that on here I've been shouted down.

Maybe the whining is what gets me ignored....

Very interesting christina

I think thats what we need and thats the bogs sorted!!

Putting the testosterone to the side for one minute, are you denying that males who identify as trans have a physical advantage over females as I said in my previous post. Do males and females have the same size of heart & lungs, same bone and muscle mass, same width of hips that give them the same length of stride, etc?

No I'm not disagreeing. What I'm saying is that I don't think any of the questions ncan be settled simply by saying "sex segregation" is the answer. It's not the answer in sport, it's not the answer in toilets or changing rooms.

I've always supported a third space. But whenever I've said that on here I've been shouted down.

I’m surprised at that. When you say third spaces, does that mean that you agree that there should also be female and male sex segregated spaces, as well as a third space that anyone is welcome to use? Or do you feel that their should be a third space, but people who identify as trans should still be permitted to use the space they wish to, even if those in the sex segregated spaces don’t view them as the same sex?

Xpost.

I don't think you're whiny Rufus

Ive heard the male/female/ third space thing from quite a few FWR regulars

It doesn’t matter what trans men look like, they are female on the basis of belonging to the sex class that produce ova. End of. Their appearance might cause alarm (but then other women might for other reasons) but they share female biology and therefore shouldn’t be excluded. Religious segregation applies to males, ie. people who belong to the sex class that produces sperm. In practice trans men probably prefer not to use female spaces, so a 3rd space is the best option. I don’t see how this is a flaw in the argument, sex segregated spaces worked pretty well until quite recently.

Thank you for saying that fairenuff but i feel there was a definite ‘nobody listens to me ’ vibe in there

What was that whining noise? 👂

😲

Harsh

I've always supported a third space. But whenever I've said that on here I've been shouted down.

A third space is talked about a lot. I think it's transpeople who don't want a mixed gender third space.

Sex segregation will be the answer for some situations and not for others. There are very few situations that justify removing safeguarding. We just have to figure out an alternative way.

Sorry, Rufus, I couldn’t resist.

S’okay [sucks]

Oh man i put [ instead of *

Now i look silly as well

OldCrone

You have entirely misunderstood what I was saying. A poster said that as trans men don't identify as women they aren't likely to want to compete with women. My answer was that trans women don't identify as men yet will be made to compete with men - my point being that this has gone past what individuals want or choose to do, and will instead be what ruling bodies decide must happen.

If you say to trans men that they can choose who they compete against then you will have trans women also choosing which negates the whole purpose of trying to protect women's sports.

Now i look silly as well

It’s the lack of oxygen from all the deep breaths when you’re wh... talking. 🤣

I have heard the third space solution numerous times on FWR, as long as there are also sex segregated spaces.

So when it comes to sex segregated spaces I always see that one of the reasons why trans women can't be allowed in female spaces is because some women will avoid them because of religious or privacy/dignity reasons and so therefore we have to segregate on the basis of sex.

Except that in the case of trans men, they may look exactly like any other man. So we will then have people who look just like men changing with women, who may not want to, or be able to be around men.

What you're missing here is that there is no symmetry between the situation around transwomen and that around transmen. Men are responsible for 90% of violent crimes and 98% of sexual crimes. Men are a more of a threat to women than women are to men, hence it's important to keep men out of women's spaces, but it's less important to keep women out of men's (except for the safety of the women).

A possible solution is that transwomen use men's spaces, but transmen who 'pass' could also use men's spaces. Transmen who haven't undergone any hormonal treatment might prefer to use women's spaces, and wouldn't appear to be a threat to other women.

A real life example of this happening is in prisons. Large numbers of male prisoners are declaring themselves trans in the hope of being transferred to women's prisons. Transmen seem to be content to stay in women's prisons. Similarly for schoolchildren who identify as trans - 'transgirls' tend to want access to the girls' changing rooms, but 'transboys' are largely content to change with the girls.

The solution for transmen doesn't have to be a mirror image of the solution for transwomen.

I might have misunderstood your comment, but isn’t a fair society built around not always letting people do what they want?

Yes, exactly my point