to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

What will stop them from competing against men is if sport is sex segregated.

Alternatively we could have two categories: women and open. The open category would be for men, transwomen and transmen who are on testosterone. Women who want to compete against men could also compete in this category. Men shouldn't have any problem with this, because none of those groups would have an advantage over the men.

Just to add.... re sportspeople.... the differences between men and women goes beyond just hormones.... the Male physiques has a biomechanical advantage over the female.... in regards to things like hips shape and bone angles etc.... I'm not sure that that can be dealt with by simple hormonal treatments....
It's a very difficult situation and in looking after and treating Trans women fairly, we cannot overlook the majority of women

So effectively trans men would be prevented from competing in sports?

No, trans men who take banned drugs wouldn't be able to compete. Just like anyone else.

they can take part if they reduce their testosterone to a natal womans

If they chose not to do this then they will have to abstain from sports where testosterone is an issue

peach

Thats no problem...thank you

I thought the whole point of this is that we are moving away from binary and making provision for all. Of course there will be grey areas. That's why discussion is so desperately needed. It doesn't mean that we have to remove safeguarding, dignity, privacy and fairness for women.

Well certainly on MN the whole argument is to very much stay with the binary system and any of us that suggest any other options are shouted down.

The line I've had trotted out so many times is that there are only two sexes and you are either one or the other.

So many of these decisions are virtually impossible to reconcile if you are trying to make them fit into one of two options.

So toilets and changing rooms only work if you introduce a third space. Again, insisting that trans men are women and trans women are men will cause issues if women for example ask for a female HCP - who could obviously be a trans man and certainly outwardly look just like a man. How is that resolved?

“Alternatively we could have two categories: women and open. The open category would be for men, transwomen and transmen who are on testosterone”
That is an excellent idea. In My Glorious Reign I will add that to eh manifesto. Along with collecting sex and gender stats. What other solutions can we come up with?

I am not sure what the fuss about trans men is all about. They are female, therefore they have access to female spaces such as bathrooms and changing rooms. They can also participate in sports competition provided they pass drug tests, as every other female. I am a Muslim woman and I have no issue sharing with them, because I see them as females. I suppose if a trans man ‘passed’ particularly well it would cause a bit of alarm ( which is to be expected I think) but if I am aware that they are actually female I would have no issue with it. On the other hand, if I entered a private space and saw a male there, and this has actually happened to me, I would leave immediately. I don’t believe people can change sex so it makes no difference to me how they identify.

And actually on page 2 my first post said that sport should be

sports should be by natal sex and maybe a third category that everyone can do

Oh gosh that was bad timing

I wasnt commenting on your post bertrand i was just following on from my last post albeit slowly

DecomposingComposers- I think it’s pretty unlikely you have ever been “shouted down” in your life!

What about if trans women's testosterone level has been lowered significantly with medication, to the level of a natal female's? Would you then accept them competing in women's sport?

A woman isn't the same as a man with low testosterone. There are other advantages which a male body has over a female body to do with bone structure and muscles. These changes largely occur during puberty, and don't disappear just by reducing testosterone.

The line I've had trotted out so many times is that there are only two sexes and you are either one or the other.

Do you think there are more than two sexes?

No, trans men who take banned drugs wouldn't be able to compete. Just like anyone else.

Which would presumably be a lot of trans men then? How many women trans without taking testosterone?

Do none of you have an issue with men and trans women being able to compete in whatever they want but trans men being effectively banned?

OldCrone

Why only take one sentence out of my post and then phrase a question as though that is the point that I was making?

Another poster said that weren't we moving away from a binary system, in which case there will be grey areas.

My answer included the sentence that you've quoted, in answering the question aren't we moving away from a binary system.

peach

Sorry i didn’t answer your question

No i still wouldn’t accept it if a transwoman had managed to lower her testosterone

She would still have very many male attributes having gone through a male puberty , i dont think its all down to testosterone

No. They can't compete against women if they take testosterone. I don't think there's anything that would stop them from competing against men.

Surely they can’t compete against men, as they are taking a banned drug. If I understand it correctly, that means that women who identify as trans will not be able to take part in ANY professional sports? Perhaps someone could clarify that for me.

What about if trans women's testosterone level has been lowered significantly with medication, to the level of a natal female's? Would you then accept them competing in women's sport?

Their testosterone level can’t, even with drugs, be lowered to a typical female level, but even if they could, the physical advantages caused by the surge of testosterone during puberty, will still exist. Longer bones and thicker muscles, thicker scull, larger heart and lung capacity, narrower hips that give longer strides than any woman of the same height. Even if a man that identifies as trans is smaller than typical males ie; similar to the height of typical females, he will still benefit from the aforementioned advantages. There is no way that it would be fair to females to have to compete against male bodied people or women who identify as trans.

I would be really supportive of trans sports and think they would actually get huge support from the general public. They could either have their own sports events, such disabled people created for themselves, or take part with other trans people, during the Olympics until there are enough trans sports people to start their own Olympics, if they wish to.

Why only take one sentence out of my post and then phrase a question as though that is the point that I was making?

I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that there were more than two sexes.

Surely they can’t compete against men, as they are taking a banned drug. If I understand it correctly, that means that women who identify as trans will not be able to take part in ANY professional sports? Perhaps someone could clarify that for me.

That appears to be what posters are arguing for, yes. That trans men not be allowed to take part in any sports.

Do none of you have an issue with men and trans women being able to compete in whatever they want but trans men being effectively banned?

I'm I reading a different thread? I thought most people are say compete alongside your sex? Why would that ban trans men, but allow men and tw to compete where ever they want?

That appears to be what posters are arguing for, yes. That trans men not be allowed to take part in any sports

No, just that there testosterone should be lowered

Are you actually saying that a transman is only a transman if they are on testosterone?

Plus posters have said many times that an open sporting category would be great for anyone male, female, trans, non binary to enter

Sports for all

I'm I reading a different thread

I have exactly the same feeling

An open sporting category would be a good option, I would certainly support that

Surely they can’t compete against men, as they are taking a banned drug. If I understand it correctly, that means that women who identify as trans will not be able to take part in ANY professional sports?

After saying that, I realised that testosterone is a banned drug, so maybe under current regulations they wouldn't be allowed to compete at all. This is nothing to do with the trans issue, it's to do with doping in sport.

Transmen on testosterone competing against women is obviously unfair, because the testosterone level allowed for women is very low. A transman with a normal male level of testosterone could compete against men, though, without having any advantage over the men. It would be up to the sporting bodies to decide whether this should be allowed.

“Do none of you have an issue with men and trans women being able to compete in whatever they want but trans men being effectively banned?
If it’s a choice between that and the end of women’s sport then, sadly, yes.