to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

'I think the only way is for trans-people to accept they are trans-people. That way lies societal stigma but one I am willing to fight as a biological woman. Trans-women cannot be women but they can be trans-women....and there is nothing wrong with that.....'

God yes I agree entirely with this sensible poster. Be trans, accept that you're trans and own it. I'll join the campaigns for third spaces for trans/non binary/whomever else wishes to use them. I'll fight for equality for trans people. But as long as people claim TWAW there's a problem, we are being asked to ignore biological facts, and anyone in their right mind should and ought to refuse to do that.

Echo even if it's only happening to a few lesbians, it still needs sorting out. They should not be abused for it online or in real life.

The problem is that it is the premise that is a lie. If we accept that TWAW and TMAM then of course transwomen can participate in womens sport, of course lesbians will be attracted to them, of course they should use women's refuges etc. But the problem is it's not true and pretty much everyone has a line somewhere about this, for some its sport, for some its toilets but nearly everyone has this line. Just ask pretty much any straight men and they will clearly and succinctly tell you their line. I think as a society it was an unkind thing for us to do, we should not have told the lie in the first place.

Single, self contained toilets are easy to put in. Many places have them already. I don't think toilets is a difficult one to solve.

@Bertrand

Re. the sport question, I'd encourage you to watch the movie 'Next Goal Wins'. The third-gender person (who would likely be viewed a transwomen in the UK) is an interesting subplot. She seemed to feel entirely at ease and welcome in a male team, because there seems to be more acceptance of her gender in Samoa than a trans woman could expect in the UK. Hell, you can't even be an openly gay footballer in the UK, there's no way transwomen would feel welcome.

Maybe some would prefer to compete with women due to their competitive advantage, or unwilling to compete with cis-males for ideological reasons, but it's hard to know how prevelant that would be given how unwelcoming men's sport currently is to anything other than the hyper-masculine.

I do think that is male sports were more accepting, more transwomen would be willing to participate with cis-men who they share biological advantages with.

Single, self contained toilets are easy to put in. Many places have them already. I don't think toilets is a difficult one to solve.

Unless you follow some of the heated debates about single self contained toilets on here, where they are roundly decried and posters demand the rest introduction of sex segregated toilets ( see the recent wagamamas thread on here). This is where part of the problem lies - some people refuse to accept that things need to change. They want them to remain exactly the same so how can any progress be made in this discussion?

I don’t think transwomen want to compete in women’s sport because they don’t feel comfortable in men’s. I think it’s because they are more likely to win.

The stats back that up - as per link

images.app.goo.gl/STtHVoryA6csf7Sq7

What about lesbian women who are in relationships - which they consider to be lesbian relationships - with trans women with penises? Would you redefine them - against their will - as no longer lesbians?

What about vegetarians who eat meals - which they consider to be vegetarian meals - which include meat? Would you redefine them - against their will - as no longer vegetarians?

People can't use words to mean whatever they want them to mean.

So if we make trans women compete against males then where do trans men compete? Following the binary system they would compete with females except they will have high testosterone levels so won't they have advantage over the female athletes? So again, steadfastly sticking to a binary system thinking that is solves everything, actually disadvantages trans men every time.

This is why the focus on trans women on MN frustrates me so much. For me, bigger issues are raised when considering trans men and yet most posters choose to ignore them on here for some reason.

Transmen would reduce their testosterone levels to a natal female one

Unless you follow some of the heated debates about single self contained toilets on here

I think those debates centre around cubicles with shared handwashing facilities rather than completely self contained floor to ceiling ones.

This is why the focus on trans women on MN frustrates me so much. For me, bigger issues are raised when considering trans men and yet most posters choose to ignore them on here for some reason.

Transmen are not imposing on anyone. They are currently causing no problems. We are happy to help them campaign for what they need too.

@DecomposingComposers

Do many/any transmen currently compete in male sports? I'd assume they'd be more competitively disadvantaged playing against males than females. I don't think males' physical sporting advantages are limited to testosterone levels.

So if we make trans women compete against males then where do trans men compete?

If they are not taking banned drugs, why can't they compete with women?

If they are taking banned drugs then they can't compete, just like anyone else who takes banned drugs.

Transmen would reduce their testosterone levels to a natal female one

Which would presumably remove any of the changes that they are taking testosterone to achieve?

“For me, bigger issues are raised when considering trans men and yet most posters choose to ignore them on here for some reason”
I don’t exactly ignore them. They just don’t impact on my life. Apart for the fact that the two transpeople I know best are both transmen. I suppose my attitude is good luck to them taking on the world of men!

Which would presumably remove any of the changes that they are taking testosterone to achieve?

One would imagine so

So if we make trans women compete against males then where do trans men compete? Following the binary system they would compete with females except they will have high testosterone levels so won't they have advantage over the female athletes?

Athletes are disqualified from competing while taking certain medically necessary drugs, such as decongestants and analgesics. Certainly they are disqualified if they take testosterone. Why should this be any different for trans people?

I think those debates centre around cubicles with shared handwashing facilities rather than completely self contained floor to ceiling ones.

Nope. Definitely single self contained toilets (see wagamamas thread). Some of the objections - men use them and so were everywhere, cameras can be hidden in them, cubicles not big enough to take prams into so women can't use them with doors open, men could drag a woman into the toilet and attack them.

Transmen are not imposing on anyone. They are currently causing no problems. We are happy to help them campaign for what they need too.

But why is the only issue one of people imposing? As I said, one objection to trans women being in female spaces is that many women, whether on religious or personal grounds, will be excluded from these spaces if males are present. Do you not think the same difficulties exist if trans men are in these spaces? If a woman who can't or doesn't meant to be around men walks into a changing room and sees a muscular person with a beard standing there does it make any difference that they have XX chromosomes?

I think transmen would have a choice to make. Take testosterone and compete with males, or don't and compete with females. I don't think male sport would have any real issues letting transmen compete as they are at a disadvantage.

“ If a woman who can't or doesn't meant to be around men walks into a changing room and sees a muscular person with a beard standing there does it make any difference that they have XX chromosomes?”
Can I ask why you think a trans man might do that?

Could posters please STOP using the word ‘cis’ to describe women or men. It’s extremely offensive and also banned on Mumsnet, because it’s not acceptable language.

Do many/any transmen currently compete in male sports? I'd assume they'd be more competitively disadvantaged playing against males than females. I don't think males' physical sporting advantages are limited to testosterone levels.

I don't know how many. How many trans women are currently competing? The point is, if you say that trans women have to compete against men because they are male then you also have to accept trans men competing against women because they are female don't you?

I don’t exactly ignore them. They just don’t impact on my life. Apart for the fact that the two transpeople I know best are both transmen. I suppose my attitude is good luck to them taking on the world of men!

So because something doesn't affect you it's ok to ignore it? If I were to say that trans women don't currently affect me I would be shouted down on here that it isn't about me but about how it affects women as a class. You know that is true.

And yes, you can say good luck to trans men ( I think that about anyone who is trans). But it isn't just about them taking on the men is it? In a binary world, where do they fit in? If you get your sex segregated system, trans men have to be included with women. Where then does that leave women who can't be around men? Do you say that they have to be excluded or do you say trans men have to be excluded?

I don’t think anyone has on this thread have they? I don’t like it either- but I think if anyone does on this thread I’d say it was OK if it made it easier for them to talk.

Yes I said 'cis' - if it's a term that's outright banned I think I'll just call it a day for my time on mumsnet (suspect I won't be missed anyway).

Interesting thread to read

ClaraMatilda for me i can understand the veggie question more easily than any of the orginal qus (i think!)

As a veggie i wouldnt ever choose a meal that had meat in. On a menu i would look at it as an option but dismiss it for myself because i dont like meat and i dont want to eat meat. If i ate something that turned out to have meat in i would reject it if i hadnt finished it or feel i had been tricked or duped unfairly. I wouldnt continue to eat it with that knowledge. Id probably complain quite loudly in a restaurant and politely push my food around my plate at someones house hoping noone had noticed i wasnt eating it.

Im not sure either that the veggie conparision translates across - i would still think of myself as veggie because that's my choice, my preference, i actively avoid something. I think it becomes more complex from dealing with people and their emotions and feelings and the realtionship you have with a person.

I may have talked myself into a circle. Probably why i lurk and read and shouldnt comment