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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

844 replies

BertrandRussell · 09/06/2019 11:03

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

  1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
  2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
  3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
  4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?
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joystir59 · 09/06/2019 17:33

Speaking as a lesbian I think question 4 is very important. Trans ideology seeks to erase lesbianism.

joystir59 · 09/06/2019 17:36

What about lesbian women who are in relationships - which they consider to be lesbian relationships - with trans women with penises? Would you redefine them - against their will - as no longer lesbians? Lesbian= a woman who is sexually attracted to her own sex. Women= adult human female. Adult human females do not have penises. People with penises are men. Women who are sexually attracted to men are heterosexual.

joystir59 · 09/06/2019 17:38

Transgenderism is inherently homophobic.

joystir59 · 09/06/2019 17:41

Lesbians and day men are sexually attracted to their own biological SEX. Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation. For transgendered people to say that genitals don't matter in sexual attraction is homophobic.

Fairenuff · 09/06/2019 18:04

'I instinctively agree to about no medication to under 16s. But logically I know that that wouldn’t work, because there is no real chance of an effective transition if it’s left so late'

I think the answer to this is that there needs to be a change in society's perception, rather than medicalising children to fit in with current society norms.

It should not matter what people look like. And that applies to all people, not just trans.

OldCrone · 09/06/2019 18:08

I think the answer to this is that there needs to be a change in society's perception, rather than medicalising children to fit in with current society norms.

I agree. And medicalising children so that they can better resemble the opposite sex, but with no sexual function, is child abuse.

JellySlice · 09/06/2019 18:09

Isn't a huge part of the problem actually nothing to do with trans people? Aren't the problems actually male prejudice and male violence? If it was totally acceptable for a man to wear a frock and makeup, to act in a swishy high-pitched stereotypically feminine manner and name himself Mary, why would he need to call himself a woman and access women's spaces?

We can debate and dialogue as much as we like, but until toxic masculinity is detoxified, we will get nowhere. Toxic masculinity will continue to distress males who need to identify as women, and will continue to be the reason males will compete against women in sport, as well as invading women's spaces.

Fairenuff · 09/06/2019 18:15

Yes, and if the TRAs would allow discussion around this it would become clear.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 09/06/2019 18:29

Jelly you're spot on about male violence. This must be addressed.

Trans ideology right now however is the force pushing through and influencing policies and procedures which if they go through will affect us massively.

We need to push back on this still.

When Curious said - TRAs on the other hand.... would continue to call 3rd spaces transphobic. Hell, even cubicles in mixed sex/gender neutral loos are transphobic if the doors go from floor to ceiling!.

// this totally. This is my worry because there is a large, vocal, well funded and influential group of people who do not want to debate this and have not demonstrated any consideration for the needs of biological women and girls.

Excellent thread Bertrand.

DuploTower · 09/06/2019 18:38

I'm not convinced transgenderism is homophobic or seeking to erase lesbianism.

I'm awaiting some snark for saying this out loud. But I haven't seen much compelling evidence for it.

sackrifice · 09/06/2019 18:48

I'm awaiting some snark for saying this out loud. But I haven't seen much compelling evidence for it.

This is supposed to be a civilised thread so I'll not link to it but courses were being run on how to break through the cotton ceiling...a term used for lesbians knickers.

It is totally homophobic.

OldCrone · 09/06/2019 18:49

If it was totally acceptable for a man to wear a frock and makeup, to act in a swishy high-pitched stereotypically feminine manner and name himself Mary, why would he need to call himself a woman and access women's spaces?

And since people can't change sex, this would be a more appropriate and progressive solution than pretending that people can change sex and all the lies and obfuscation that go with that pretence.

We seemed to be getting there in the 80s, but now we've gone backwards.

BertrandRussell · 09/06/2019 18:57

This reply has been deleted

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BertrandRussell · 09/06/2019 18:58

Back to sex segregated spaces..

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Fairenuff · 09/06/2019 19:11

One thing at a time Bertrand Grin

MaximusHeadroom · 09/06/2019 19:12

There is a man, a woman and a transwoman with 10 biscuits. The man takes 9 biscuits and says to the transwoman "it's ok, you're a woman now so you can take her biscuit"

If we could get rid of gender as a social construct and talk about sex only in terms of biology

And if we could stop male violence

Most of these questions would become moot.

Sadly these things are not under the purview of women who are the ones having rights and protections threatened.

Men have forced gender stereotypes and sexual violence on women for thousands of years. Men have made women's rights and protections necessary. They have the power to address these issues.

Sadly they are not likely to be sufficiently interested.

That is what frustrates me about any trans debate.

Fairenuff · 09/06/2019 19:16

The lack of support from men is shocking.

BertrandRussell · 09/06/2019 19:20

Yes- nobody is talking about widening the bandwidth of masculinity.....

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BoneyBackJefferson · 09/06/2019 19:25

JellySlice

I'm not going argue about male violence, but to state that its only male prejudice is dodging a large chunk of the issue.

NameChange873 · 09/06/2019 19:33

I'm male so I don't feel that my opinion on 1 or 2 is worthwhile.

Re. sports, I think the culture of male sports needs to change so that transwomen feel comfortable participating. The American Samoan football team had a third-gender player (male presenting as feminine) who felt welcome and included. Toxic masculinity is a massive problem in sport, to the point where you still don't get openly gay football players in this country, let alone tolerance for trans players. If transwomen felt safe and welcome in the male game, perhaps they'd be more willing to participate amongst men that they share certain physical advantages with.

Re. 4: I don't think the 'cotton-ceiling' PoV is anything like universal amongst trans people, but it is one that has me questioning my own attitude. Ignoring genitals for a moment, I'd happily have anal sex with, or receive oral sex from, a woman. However, if someone I thought was a cis woman revealed that they were a transwomen, I'd lose all interest. Objectively I don't think there's a good reason for that and, sadly, I think it is rooted in prejudice.

I suppose a good comparison is race and attraction. Some people aren't attracted to people of some races. Whilst no-one isn't obligated to sleep with anyone, I think should be acknowledged that our media tends to equate whiteness and attractiveness, which has an affect on the sexual preferences people develop.

If straight men sleeping with transwomen had been normalized in our media, I wonder if I'd still have my same hang ups.

I think there's a legitimate conversation to be had, but obviously shame is not an effective or moral tool to use to try and change someone's sexual preferences.

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 19:36

Forgive my ignorance but why is the focus on lesbians in particular with regards to sexual preference?
I understand some TW like woman but is it disproportionate compared to TW who like men and straight and gay transmen?

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 19:38

The 4th one I think is the easiest - it shouldn't be anyone else's business who you choose to sleep with (providing it's legal).

Just because a person is a specific sexuality it doesn't mean that they are willing to sleep with everyone in that category so it is just a redundant question in my view. I'm a heterosexual woman. That doesn't mean that I find all men attractive. I don't have a "type" but even if I did it doesn't mean that I will find every man who is that type attractive so I have no clue how anyone can say that lesbians have to find trans women attractive ( if that is what has been said). Lesbians won't find all other lesbians attractive so how you can select to force anyone to find you attractive now beyond bonkers to me.

The sport issue I think can be solved by keeping it segregated by sex if that is required.

The crime one, depending on the level of detail needed, you could segregated by sex or by male, female, trans male trans female if that detail is needed.

It's the first one that I struggle with.

If you legislate to segregate spaces based on sex you will have males (including trans women) and females (including trans men).

I see it stated a lot that there are two reasons for segregation - safety and privacy/dignity. So, you might keep women safer by segregating but I cannot see how the privacy/dignity aspect can be satisfied if you are expecting women to be sharing spaces with trans men, who, outwardly might look incredibly masculine.

I just don't see how a woman who cannot, or chooses not, to be in a space with a man when she is in a state of undress is going to be comfortable being in the space with a person who looks male, simply because their sex is female.

When I've raised this elsewhere I've had comments like trans men can choose to use mens changing rooms if they want - well, no, they can't if you actually bring in legislation to prevent this can you? If you insist that spaces are segregated on sex alone then you have to accept that this will mean trans men are using changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards etc alongside women. So what then of the women that are regularly cited as at risk of exclusion of trans women are allowed into these spaces? Surely, they will still be excluded but this time by your rules.

I also don't agree with people who have transitioned being forced to basically declare their status every time they venture out into public and need to use a toilet or a changing room and I know that isn't a popular opinion to hold on here. At the very least we need to ensure that we have a third space but quite how this is introduced and accepted by everyone, I don't know.

As for HCP, again, how will we legislate? A female patient requests a female HCP, by the definition of sex a trans man would be female. So, what does a patient do if a trans man comes in to do a smear test for example? If the patient says, no I asked for a female, what's the answer to that?

Do you then have to segregate by sex and by appearance? What language do we use to talk about these scenarios?

Echobelly · 09/06/2019 19:42

Re: the 'you're transphobic if you're a woman who wouldn't sleep with a trans woman with a penis' viewpoint, is it really a thing? It seems to me not to actually be an argument espoused beyond a small fringe group of trans people - I'm pretty sure the vast majority of trans women don't 'demand' that lesbians be attracted to them and the whole issue has been discussed way out of proportion.

BertrandRussell · 09/06/2019 19:45

namechange- I think a male view is valid on all the points actually!

Your sport point is interesting- and shows you to be a much nicer person than I am. I don’t think transwomen want to compete in women’s sport because they don’t feel comfortable in men’s. I think it’s because they are more likely to win.

And I don’t agree that having genital preferences is prejudice. I think it’s having genital preferences and that is absolutely fine.

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Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/06/2019 19:46

I honestly don’t understand the problem with gender neutral bogs as a third option

Youd have trans people in there, non binary people in there, men who’d rather shit in a nicer toilet, women skipping the queue in the ladies, women with children of different sexes

I dont get the issue