to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Athletes are disqualified from competing while taking certain medically necessary drugs, such as decongestants and analgesics. Certainly they are disqualified if they take testosterone. Why should this be any different for trans people?

Well, because then you are saying that trans women can continue to compete, because they can compete against men, but trans men can't?

I don't think male sport would have any real issues letting transmen compete as they are at a disadvantage.

It won't be up to men though will it? If so, will it be up to women to decide if trans women can compete against women? If so, who gets to decide? It will have to be legislated for so if you segregate on the basis of sex trans women will compete with men, trans men with women. It can't be left to individual choice can it?

then you also have to accept trans men competing against women because they are female don't you?

Who isn’t accepting it

Ive missed that bit...which isn’t unusual for me

I’d say it was OK if it made it easier for them to talk

It’s been used a couple of times and as it’s a banned word then, respectfully, BertrandRussell, it shouldn’t be used. Transwoman/transman and men/women works just as well. I’m not a cis woman, I’m a woman.

I think the Caster Semenya case confuses any trans debates. She does have testes hence the high Testosterone. Perhaps we need a definition of a woman and a definition of a man first.
No one dares do this as it would offend the trans people.
I don't know what else she does or doesn't have but I can't help wondering if she had been born in a western country she might have had an op to make her sex more defined.

If a woman who can't or doesn't meant to be around men walks into a changing room and sees a muscular person with a beard standing there does it make any difference that they have XX chromosomes?”

Can I ask why you think a trans man might do that?

Bertrand what do you mean by why would a trans man do that?

What choice will they have? If by law, males are in one changing room and females in another what choice of trans men have? They have to go with the biological sex, so in the women's changing room. Where else would you like them to go?

DecomposingComposers- i’ve noticed on other threads that you seem to have an issue with me. I’m happy to answer your points- but can we try and keep the thread measured?
When I said they don’t impact on my life, I meant that I don’t think they would impact particularly on anyone’s as transpeople. The are both people who before transition did not present in a particularly stereotypical feminine way, and I think that they could both now use male or female facilities without raising any eyebrows. I think it unlikely that any trans man who wanted to compete in men’s sport would “trouble the scorers” to coin a phrase, and it’s the unfair advantage that’s the issue, not the competing in women’s sport per se.

then you also have to accept trans men competing against women because they are female don't you?

Testosterone increases strength and speed in women who identify as trans and is also a banned drug, so they wouldn’t be able to compete anyway.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

A previous poster said that they thought that men would let trans men compete with men. My argument is that how we have it to individuals decide?

Can I, as a woman, say it's ok for trans women to compete against women? I'm sure the answer here would be no. So it also can't be ok for some men to say that it's ok for trans men to compete with men can it? Because other men might not agree. So you have to have regulations brought in that decide these things and if it's ruled that sport is segregated by sex then that means trans men compete with and against women.

“So you have to have regulations brought in that decide these things and if it's ruled that sport is segregated by sex then that means trans men compete with and against women.”
Yep- fine by me....

if it's ruled that sport is segregated by sex then that means trans men compete with and against women.

Yes

This is i think the third time ive agreed with this and i have seen other posts agreeing as well

Im not sure how i can make it clearer that i agree

@BertrandRussell

Right back at you.

I find it very frustrating when you say something which I know if I had said it would have the frog whistle blown and people would jump on me for saying it.

It isn't anything to do with trans men being people, men are people and trans women are people too. It has to do with drawing up rules based on, as here, sex segregation. How do you envision the law looking? These spaces are sex segregated, apart from trans men who despite being of the female sex will now be included as men, despite people arguing that humans can't change sex.

So then you are sending a biological female person off into a male space. Is that ok?

You are simultaneously arguing for individuals to be able to choose (so trans men choosing whether to go in men's or women's spaces, play sport against men or women) and laws to be brought in to segregate on the basis of sex and to stop people making the choice that is right for them.

You either go with sex segregation and the problems that causes or you don't. How can you introduce some kind of grey area within a binary system?

And what on earth does it matter how someone presents and whether it is stereotypical or not? If you mean can a trans person pass then is it ok for a trans woman to use a female toilet or changing room if they pass? Again, many posters on here would say no.

So what criteria would you employ?

if it's ruled that sport is segregated by sex then that means trans men compete with and against women.

I dont see a problem with this.

Having discovered that the word 'cis' is banned on mumsnet, I don't think this is an appropriate website for a thread of this nature, nor one I will continue to frequent. Good luck to those genuinely trying to have a constructive dialogue.

@BertrandRussell and @Rufusthebewilderedreindeer so you're fine with trans men competing against women, despite having the advantage of having been, or still being on, testosterone?

Re private spaces like toilets I think 3rd and 4th spaces need to be created. My male friends employer has just moved them to a new build office, he is now supposed to use the mixed sex toilets and is appalled. He told me he had thought about going to another floor to use the loo where he wouldn’t know the ladies he would be forced to share with. I said that could be more worrying all around. He and his team have decided to use the toilets in the pub over the road so they can maintain their sex based privacy. It’s ridiculous that this is no longer respected in some places. Men need to start complaining too, to employers restaurants etc.

decomposing

Please do the basic courtesy of reading my posts

For the third time....testosterone would need to be lowered to the rate of a natal women

A few of us have said this

BetrandandRussell can I just say how impressed I am with this thread and the respectful, measured way that you discuss these issues

A few people have said they don’t see it being a ‘thing’ that the trans movement is homophobic.

lesbians were physically removed from a Pride march this year for advocating for Same Sex relationships. As defined as Sexual Orientation in the Equality Act.

Stonewall want sex removed as a protected characteristic in law. This underpins sexual orientation too.

So yes I do think it’s important we keep the right of gay and lesbian people to discriminate by sex. It’s what we (and Stonewall) fought for.

Having discovered that the word 'cis' is banned on mumsnet, I don't think this is an appropriate website for a thread of this nature, nor one I will continue to frequent. Good luck to those genuinely trying to have a constructive dialogue.

Look at the rules. The words terf, Tim, tif and also not calling trans people by the gender they identify with, is also banned.

If the fact that you’re not permitted to use the insulting term cis, is enough to upset you, then this probably isn’t the site for you. 🤷‍♀️

The TM situation is a different issue. Women entering male spaces doesn't cause the same issues that males entering women's single sex spaces do, and in many cases (prisons) it's already case that TM use women's facilities due to safety.

It's also not up to women to come up with the answer, women's situation is the need to protect single sex spaces and to ensure the answer is additional provision that meets everyone's needs, not reallocating women's provision in a way that includes males with trans identities to provide them with choice while excluding some women from access to any provision at all.

The unpalatable fact is that woman is a biological state, and some specific situations are about the specific needs of that biological class. That cannot be shifted to be 'inclusive' of men without a major and unacceptable cost to women. And the rhetoric that this represents 'c**' women wanting privilege over other women is as unhelpful as it's in denial of reality.

“Having discovered that the word 'cis' is banned on mumsnet, I don't think this is an appropriate website for a thread of this nature, nor one I will continue to frequńent. Good luck to those genuinely trying to have a constructive dialogue“
I’m sad about that and do not understand I think your contribution was very valuable, and would have welcomed more. But if the word “cis” is the hill you’re prepared to die on, maybe robust debate is not for you.

name

As far as i am aware you can call yourself cis

Just not anyone else

'Some of the objections - men use them and so were everywhere, cameras can be hidden in them, cubicles not big enough to take prams into so women can't use them with doors open, men could drag a woman into the toilet and attack them.'

Those seem to be valid concerns and should be considered. Maybe some female only toilets and some separate individual cubicles. Much like the disabled ones, but not the actual disabled ones. I really do think this is one of the easiest issues to resolve.

'But why is the only issue one of people imposing? As I said, one objection to trans women being in female spaces is that many women, whether on religious or personal grounds, will be excluded from these spaces if males are present. Do you not think the same difficulties exist if trans men are in these spaces? If a woman who can't or doesn't meant to be around men walks into a changing room and sees a muscular person with a beard standing there does it make any difference that they have XX chromosomes?'

Again, separate facilities would sort this. It can be done if everyone works together to achieve it.

The answer to all of these situations is to recognise that sex is a biological definition and that gender is a social construct. For most of us, sex and gender align. For a small percentage of people they do not. An even smaller percentage of people seek to exploit this difference in order to infringe on the rights of biological women. Protecting women's rights is about ensuring that this last group do not misuse the rights afforded to trans people.

There remain certain circumstances in which distinctions need to be drawn based on biological sex. The four you list are examples of these. The law protects women from sex discrimination (not gender discrimination) and, as such, sex-segregated spaces and sporting competitions can legally remain thus. The challenge is to get the organisations concerned to continue to recognise this, so they do not bow to pressure to become single gender instead of single sex.

Frankly I consider banning 'cis' in terms of gender to be the same as banning 'hetero' in terms of sexuality. I'm surprised that mumsnet has made that decision.

I've been posting for years and am not easily offended, but the apparent acceptance and enforcement of the idea of 'cis' as a slur is profoundly unacceptable to me. I think the ban bigotry founded on a false premise.

And I'll bow out on that note and let whoever wants the final say to have it. No point me derailing the thread over this when most of my posts will probably be deleted anyway.