to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Can I complain that a service discriminated against me because I am gay, if in fact I am not.

I think you can, if the discrimination was because they thought you were gay.
I'm pretty sure the law around sexual orientation and gender reassignment also applies to someone who is perceived to have those protected characteristics.

Going back a bit in the thread now, as we seem to have moved on to lesbians. But I have a solution for the 'third space' problem: we don't have a third space, what we have is one space for people whose gender identity is female, and another space for people whose sex is female. Obviously XX people whose gender identity is female can use either. Rape centers can thus be defined as one or the other, ditto sport. As long as both are always on offer then problem solved?

Are married men who say they are straight but sleep with men hetrosexual. If not why not, that is how they define themselves.

Do you think that two trans women having penis in anal sex with each other is lesbian sex?

Initially, no, I don't think they are lesbians.

But then when you look at other scenarios it makes me question everything.

So, I'm a straight woman. I like men. I wouldn't be attracted to a trans woman because, to me, they would look like a woman. I honestly wouldn't think of my self as heterosexual if I were sleeping with a trans woman.

This is just all so complicated.

Survivaltowel

So trans women will use the female gender identity space? Where do trans men go? If the go in the female sex space then other women will be sharing with people who physically appear male?

Nothing makes sense when you try to frame it around humans changing sex.

Exactly.

There are always going to be individuals who redefine meanings to suit their interpretations. See the earlier example of meat eating vegans (I actually googled this and there's a blog and Facebook group using this term!) However it's a handful of people at most and The Vegan Society hasn't suddenly decided non meat eating vegans are bigots and issued it as an edict.

The bigger issue is when the redefining is pushed and championed in wider culture especially the organisations that were started by and for gay people in the first place.

It's how we've ended up with every LGBT org in Scotland refusing to clarify that lesbians have a right to be same sex attracted, as happened in the Women & Girls Scotland report.

I see what you mean oldcrone, but that is their perception not mine.

So much gaslighting.

Female has a meaning, and it isn't male.

It's actually not remotely complicated; some people just seem to enjoy the faux-intellectual wanking involved in lying about the basic facts of life as everyone knows them.

Transwomen are transwomen, and they are male. Bog standard XY. Some of them have dysphoria around their sexed bodies and resolve that through the extreme treatment of life long hormone treatment and surgery. Some transwomen don't have dysphoria around their sexed bodies and make no physical changes.

They may present in a way which encourages others to see them as women, but they are still male. They can be gay (exclusively in relationships with other males) or bi (relationships with both males and females) but they cannot be lesbian, as lesbians are female.

It. Is. Not. Difficult. To. Understand.

I am very old- and in my young day, there was a definite feeling among gay people that bisexuality was a cop out. People who said they were bisexual were called “sexual tourists” or “weekend gay” . The assumption was that their straight life was fake. Which, to be fair, it often was. So there has always been an attempt to ring fence sexuality.

Transmen can use XX facilities or 'my gender is male' facilities. If XY people whose gender is male feel uncomfortable with transmen (do they?) then we also need an XY space. If XX people don't want to share with transmen then they use the 'my gender is female' space.

Are married men who say they are straight but sleep with men hetrosexual. If not why not, that is how they define themselves.

Perhaps they are just doing what the Ancient Greeks did. It is their way of expressing that they are BFFs.

Or maybe they are doing the male equivelent of being political lesbians.

It is actually possible for someone to be straight yet have had homosexual experiences.

Or maybe they call themselves straight because they don't want to acknowledge that they find people with a physical male/masculine look attractive due to prejudices. And if we could remove those prejudices they would now ID as gay/bi.

Without being able to see into someone's head, you can't really know.

I just don't think it is so easy to categorise people any more. There are too many shades of grey for this to be a black and white issue now.

So, I can see that say two cross dressing men can't be classed as a lesbian couple.

A pre op trans woman with a man - struggling to see that as a heterosexual relationship.

Post op (top and bottom) trans woman plus man - I'm struggling to view that as a gay relationship.

And so on.

If XX people don't want to share with transmen then they use the 'my gender is female' space.

But in the "my gender is female" space there will also be trans women, right? Which isn't going to work for a lot of women.

The point is no one has the right to tell a lesbian who she can/can’t sleep with as much as no one has the right to tell her who she has to sleep with.
You trying to control other woman’s minds doesn’t make you the saviour of lesbians, it makes you just as bad as the TRAs and the mentality that you’re supposedly fighting.
If I slept with buck angel, I wouldn’t consider myself a lesbian for it. You might, that’s fine. If my daughter comes to me and tells me she’s attracted to him, I won’t tell her she’s a lesbian. Equally if she grows up attracted to monroe and calls herself a lesbian, I won’t tell her she’s wrong and actually straight.

Earlywalker

I completely agree.

I just don't think it is so easy to categorise people any more. There are too many shades of grey for this to be a black and white issue now.

I've heard gay men say 'I'd go straight for her' re an attractive female. Heard a lesbian say similar about a male (Pierce Brosnan, IIRC).

And it seems plenty of straight women can have "girl crushes" or can well appreciate a pair of breasts.

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to just insist that we are all bisexual and have done with it.

It doesn't matter what you 'tell' people or don't.

Words have meanings. Sexual orientation is defined in law. And it is based on sex, not appearance.

Two men having anal sex are gay. According to you, they are straight if one says he's a woman? Or does he have to have hormones before he's straight. Or breast implants? Or genital surgery? Af what point does everyone have to accept that two men have changed their sexual orientation?

What if he looks like a woman to you, but a man to me?

What if he has genital surgery but keeps the beard and hairy chest?

Utter nonsense. Words have meanings.

If you need a different word to describe a transwoman having sex with a woman, invent it. Lesbian is taken.

Doesn’t matter how we see them, it matters how they see themselves.
If a lesbian woman sleeps with a transwoman and they see themselves as a lesbian couple, then why is it up to you and me to tell them they’re right or wrong?
Why are you so invested in other people’s sex lives that you have to define who they are according to your criteria and why do you think that your opinion on their relationship overrides their own?
Legal changing of gender is defined in law too. Legally some transwoman are woman, this is not about the law. This is about a need to invalidate relationships based on your criteria.
As long as it is an act of free will between two consenting adults, it’s not your business.

So it's not about appearance then, it's about legal status?

Or was it genital surgery? Or plastic surgery?

Or, I know, each individual person can just decide on the meaning of words, irrespective of whether or not anyone else agrees. And we can just guess whether or not we've been discriminated against. Or if we have, the person doing the discriminating can just disagree based on their own interpretation of words. That shouldn't tie up tribunals for any length of time.

Sexual orientation, including mine, is defined in law.

Strewth, it's as though people actually want the best part of 50 years of campaigning to have been for fuck all.

Here are the survey results showing what happens when lesbian means a man (or a subjective feeling that changes with the weather.)

www.gettheloutuk.com/attachments/lesbiansatgroundzero.pdf

And while you're at it, why not visit the trans widows threads and tell all those women that if their husbands say so, then they are lesbians.

So women who sleep with trans men are in a lesbian relationship? Sorry to go back a bit (I've been walking the dog) but I might be able to throw some light on that for you!

My transmale friend - the one whose wedding I went to a while ago - lived as a lesbian for decades. As he transitioned his lesbian partner became unsettled and eventualy decided that she couldn't continue in a relationship with her lesbian artner once that partner was set on having a penos. So their relationship ended.

Transmale friend married a previously hetero woman who had no lesbian leanings... I know this as she too is a long term friend.

So the answer to all the 'what would a lesbian do?' questions is whatever they choose... there will be as many resons for decisions as there are people.

As I said earlier, which nobody addressed and some have continued with the 'posters here think transmen are women and should use female spaces' statement, I don't! I think that once an individual decides to 'trans' themselves they automatically 'other' themselves and will find it very hard to find a comfortable, accepting space everywhere/anywhere they go. It is inevitable that they will find conflict and, in the past, transwomen have known that and have been very quiet about their use of female spaces. That this is less the case now is the issue, the forcing, the invasion, the demanding is the problem. It shuts down any debate, automatially closes all lines of real commnication and, to be frank, I can no longer be arsed with much of it. It is tiresome.

Tiresome because the bottom line is, when push came to shove, I , like many other women have and will, realise when face to face with a TRA making demands, that the person making the demands is an entitled man and I WILL say no! The very act of the demand is enough to tell me that I wil not be comfortable with that man in a female space and therefore I will always exercise my right, legal and moral, to say no!

And all of this for what? None of the trans individuals I know want anything to do with it. Oh! That makes it sound like I know many, I don't. But I am in my 50s and so have many non conformist friends, many of whom have been 'gender benders' since the 80s.

WHy an't we go back to that? Cheerful and all encompassing acceptance of gender bending... whilst still being male or female?

Sorry for the misspers, fingers are still cold!

Would be interesting to see where those woman who were surveyed were found? Im assuming the organisation that conducted it has no bias one way or another, as I’m sure you understand that research conducted by a bias body is not really an overall representation of opinion?

Lesbians are perfectly entitled to not sleep with transwoman if they wish, as I’ve said countless times.

They are also welcome to sleep with them if they wish, without prejudice from the likes of you telling them they’re not allowed.

They are also welcome to sleep with them if they wish, without prejudice from the likes of you telling them they’re not allowed.

Oh give over.

If you can't debate without talking rubbish, stop.

Think of a different word.

Lesbian is taken.

As is heterosexual. You don't get to tell me what my sexual orientation is, either. And it's opposite sex attraction. Not opposite gender attraction.

That’s fine, no one is forcing you to sleep with a transman are they? Because if they are that would be very wrong and your boundaries should be respected.

But equally, if you want to sleep with a transman, you also have the right to do as you wish without defining yourself or having other people define you as a lesbian if you don’t see yourself that way.

How did we get to this place we are now? By Stereotypes, putting people in boxes, telling people who they can and can’t be according to a set of rules that has been constructed by man. This is what you’re now actively encouraging.