to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

The same has been said for transgender individuals. I addressed that too!

See

I can also fully accept and understand that [the innate feeling of being gay] as an explanation of being trans. But not the 'I was always a wo/man I just had the wrong body' schtick! So that leaves us with it as being a choice!

That and telling TRAs that it is all in their heads is transphobic, apparently. Just so's you know!

I know you did curious but my question that you were responding too was:

What biological and scientific evidence is there for being gay that there isn’t for transgenderism?

But if organisations like Stonewall are successful and self ID is pushed through literally any man can rock up to the gym changing room my daughter could be in alone. That's a threat right there.

Well, apart from the fact that you can't prove a negative, there is no absolute science for being gay. My answer was that being gay IS a feeling, a personal preference, something in the brain. What makes us gay probably is a personal preference, an abiding one. As yet science has only found merest traces of possible causality.

If that were what TRAs also claimed then there would be no problem. But they don't, do they? Many TRAs claim that they were literally born in the wrng body, wehre actually fe/male at birth but their body was the wrong sex, etc etc.

The transgender people I know in real life accept that their transness started in their heads. They accept that it is a medical condition and that they needed a lot of medical intervento to feel more comfortable.

It is TRAs that are trying to make this more, different, world changing!

Or did you forget that most GC Feminists still make some distinction between trans individuals and TRAs?

So going back to the OP and the premise of this being a thread based on practical ways forward, the summary of the last few pages is that:

Some people believe that personal choice of identity and choice access to any group or space should be supported and validated in all situations regardless of the classification/specific boundaries of that group or space, or that their needs are already catered for in other spaces and groups, and that harm to others is a price worth paying for respecting this personal freedom and progressive escape from labels and boundaries.

Some people believe that those boundaries should be protected for the people belonging to those groups and spaces through fact rather than choice/preference for that identity, and that the harm done by invading or redefining those boundaries away from the original users is unacceptable and oppressive, and prevents the users' needs being properly met, while also excluding some women from access to any groups or services at all.

Freedom of belief is a thing. It's clear that simply hoping to argue everyone into all believing one thing is going to work about as well as it has for Brexit.

So what can be middle ground that allows the OP's original 4 questions to be answered?

I would add a useful caveat to those two positions:

those who believe that personal choice should be the defining factor above classification often do not agree that freedom of choice should be equally extended to all in society, but only to specific groups, with other groups denied the same freedom and respect for choice.

Which puts it somewhere in the middle ground between: based on personal choice for some groups based on classification, but absolutely restricted to classification alone for others.

What biological and scientific evidence is there for being gay that there isn’t for transgenderism?

Being gay means being attracted to people of the same sex. It is an observable fact that this is true - some people are attracted to people of the same sex.

We need a definition of 'transgenderism' in order to see if a similar statement can be made for it. So first we need that definition. There seem to be several, so I'll try it for some of those.

Trans = 'born in the wrong body' - not true since this is impossible.

Trans = 'female' brain in male body (or vice versa) - it has not been shown that there is any difference between male and female brains, let alone how a brain could end up in an opposite-sexed body.

Trans = Gender dysphoria, which is a belief that one is in the wrong body - mental disorder, since this is not possible.

Trans = likes presenting as/ behaving as the opposite sex - do I really need to point out how regressive this sort of stereotyping is?

Trans = fetish, particularly men who are aroused at the thought of themselves as women (autogynephilia) - certainly exists.

So we have trans as a mental disorder, a need to adhere to gender stereotypes or a fetish. Can you explain to me how this is comparable to being gay?

So we have trans as a mental disorder, a need to adhere to gender stereotypes or a fetish. Can you explain to me how this is comparable to being gay?

I can tell you that maybe 50 years ago, those 3 reasons would have been given for why people were gay.

This is an interesting read, when read with these current arguments in mind -(sorry don’t know how to make it click)
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3337249/amp

You’re arguments all centre on ‘this is not possible, this is not true’ except for the fetish argument. That’s interesting.
I don’t believe humans can change their biological sex, that doesn’t mean there may not be innate reasons for feeling ‘born in the wrong body’

How can you be so sure that there is not some physical or biological reason for being trans?

Just because science hasn't yet found it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

50 years ago gay people were generally considered to be perverted in some way and it was criminalised for a very long time in this country.

Thankfully, we are now more enlightened and it is seen as perfectly normal.

I'd love to know how anyone can be so sure about the human brain when in scientific terms, so little is known about it.

There is objective scientific evidence for homosexuality, actually. Scientists use devices that measure arousal response, and then show various erotic stimuli. The results are quite conclusive. So no, not just "a feeling in someone's head".

I can tell you that maybe 50 years ago, those 3 reasons would have been given for why people were gay.

Thankfully we've moved on.

You’re arguments all centre on ‘this is not possible, this is not true’ except for the fetish argument.

You didn't read very carefully if you think that. Gender dysphoria exists, but since it's impossible to change sex or be born in the wrong body, it's a mental disorder, like people who think one of their limbs shouldn't be there.

People who find it impossible to live outside gender stereotypes also exist. I think they should be able to live as they want without having to declare that they're the opposite sex. Society should be more tolerant towards people who don't follow gender norms. I think this can be achieved, just as we now accept that some people are gay.

I don’t believe humans can change their biological sex, that doesn’t mean there may not be innate reasons for feeling ‘born in the wrong body’

There are innate reasons in cases of gender dysphoria, which is a delusion that the body is somehow 'wrong'. Do you think it's a healthy state for someone to feel they've been 'born in the wrong body'?

Can I just ask if natal females who are solely attracted to other natal females wanted to organise as a group, camoaign fir protectiobs under the law, and maybe give themselves a name, if this would be a problem.

Campaign for protections under the law that should say, not the nonsense my phone managed to produce

How can you be so sure that there is not some physical or biological reason for being trans?

I think there is, in cases of gender dysphoria, but I don't think it's a healthy state. Please stop comparing this with being gay. Being gay doesn't require a lifetime of medication and major surgery. A mental state which leads a person to reject their body as 'wrong' is not a healthy state.

It's not possible to change sex, so rejecting the sex of one's body is unhealthy - it's a disorder.

What's your opinion on the similar condition of body integrity identity disorder?

Scientists use devices that measure arousal response, and then show various erotic stimuli. That's effect! Walker was asking about cause. Nobody is saying that you cannot measure arousal or sexual attraction. That's been done for decades, millennia even!

If anyone has a moment, I’d love to hear thoughts on this? www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/amp/

I don’t believe humans can change their biological sex, that doesn’t mean there may not be innate reasons for feeling ‘born in the wrong body’
Just further up this thread I put, for a few years as a teen,I thought I was or should have been born a boy (today I would probably be ushered through to taking drugs and maybe quite serious surgery) I honestly had many many thoughts about how I really must be a boy.
From my presentation, always more comfortable in jeans and boots, always on my bike outside or riding my pony or in the woods catching tadpoles, climbing trees etc.
I was sad that I wasnt really a boy, somehow I knew even then (age 13 ish) that I wasnt a boy.
The only way I got through was one day waking up and thinking well fuck it all, I am a girl, no getting away from it. I will just be a girl in jeans and boots who likes boy things.
Years of angst gone just like that. I still live in those clothes, do all "boy" stuff and now wonder what the hell I was thinking.

Will this/could this be a phase or are people born in the wrong body? I dont know but by hell the tra and SJW are not helping by hedging around, trying to steal another group's assets, making out that group is bad for not wanting to share.
Its turned me well away from any sympathy for the cause my residual memories of being a boy had engendered.

Treefloof

But yours were transient thoughts, they passed. I'm not sure that gives you true insight into how someone with gender dysphoria feels.

It's a bit like me saying I often feel fed up therefore I know how someone with clinical depression feels - and it's not that bad because it soon passes.

No sorry a few years thinking I was in the wrong body is not transient

If anyone has a moment, I’d love to hear thoughts on this

You think there is such a thing as 'ladybrain'? And that men with GD must really be ladies because parts of their brain light up when they are shown lady things?

you think there’s such thing as a ‘ladybrain’?
I’m confused by the question. If scientists conclude that Male and female brain function is different then yes I’d believe them? Is that really controversial?

I think it’s a bit more scientific than showing them a handbag and seeing who gets excited From the study - The study included both adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria and used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans to assess brain activation patterns in response to a pheromone known to produce gender-specific activity. The pattern of brain activation in both transgender adolescent boys and girls more closely resembled that of non-transgender boys and girls of their desired gender. In addition, GD adolescent girls showed a male-typical brain activation pattern during a visual/spatial memory exercise. Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls

pheromone known to produce gender-specific activity

What pheromones produce gender specific activity?

There isn't any doubt that some people with gender dysphoria gravitate towards the accoutrements belonging to the opposite sex from a young age. Sometimes they just turn out to be gay or lesbian, or sometimes they develop gender dysphoria (see Ray Blanchard talking to Ben Boyce).

The gender dysphoria part is their brain telling them that they cannot enjoy those things whilst being the sex they are. Because society punishes them.

Listen to any trans person and this becomes evident.

You've got feminine boys and masculine girls in that study. It's society that determines that feminine must belong to female and masculine to male.

What Datun said. How from a very young age we're socialised to be drawn to pink or blue.

I also admire how you got the word accoutrements into this thread