to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

How did we get to this place we are now? By Stereotypes, putting people in boxes, telling people who they can and can’t be according to a set of rules that has been constructed by man

But there are two sexes

That's not something invented by man or indeed woman.

Take the words away for a moment. There are still two sexes, and those two sexes have really quite noticeably different bodies. They look, sound, feel, smell different. They have different medical needs and different physical abilities. And most people are only attracted to one sex or the other.

Stereotypes, putting people in boxes, telling people who they can and can’t be according to a set of rules that has been constructed by man. This is what you’re now actively encouraging.

Who is encouraging stereotypes? People can be who they want. As far as I'm concerned, people can call themselves what they want. But they don't have the right to force that 'identity' on others who don't share their belief.

I think that once an individual decides to 'trans' themselves they automatically 'other' themselves and will find it very hard to find a comfortable, accepting space everywhere/anywhere they go.

I agree with this. People who decide to 'trans' themselves have made a choice, and they can't insist that the world changes to suit their new identity. They are welcome to any identity they want (as long as this doesn't impinge on the rights of others), but they can't insist that we all share their belief system and change ourselves to accommodate them.

I say it's a choice, because we're repeatedly told that being 'trans' isn't a medical condition, so it must be a choice, since nobody is really 'born in the wrong body'.

My best friend claims he’s Irish, because he’s got an Irish passport. He was born in England and so were his parents. I’ve tried explaining to him that he got an Irish passport because his grandparents were Irish. I have absolutely no problem with people being able to claim Irish passports because of their family history. It still doesn’t make him Irish.

Anyone can call themselves whatever they like, but it doesn’t make it so.

How did we get to this place we are now? By Stereotypes, putting people in boxes, telling people who they can and can’t be according to a set of rules that has been constructed by man.

Oh the irony. From someone who thinks sexual orientation is based on looks. Or a certificate.

Essentially you can either have L and G or you have T.

You can't have both.

That's B

I say it's a choice, because we're repeatedly told that being 'trans' isn't a medical condition, so it must be a choice, since nobody is really 'born in the wrong body' Yep! That was my thought too. If it isn't a medical condition then it must be a choice as changing sex is physically impossible.

That is what we supported to take homosexuality off the law books, to repeal S298. It isn't an aberration, not a medical condition, it is an inherent part of someone's psyche, how they feel, think how their brain and emotions work.

I can also fully accept and understand that as an explanation of being trans. But not the 'I was always a wo/man I just had the wrong body' schtick! So that leaves us with it as being a choice!

S298??? Hopefully you know what meant!!!

Homosexual means same SEX attraction. Not gender identity .
If you include gender identity then what do you call the people who are exclusively attracted to the same sex?

‘Homogendersexual’ could a new word for non homosexual homosexuals.

I say it's a choice, because we're repeatedly told that being 'trans' isn't a medical condition, so it must be a choice

Is being gay a choice or a medical condition? I forget.

Not for me. I know I'm a woman because I know it inside. It's got nothing to do with my experiences or my biology
Am pages behind so sorry if someone already said this.
Ok you know you are a woman without that knowledge being from biology/experience, fair enough.
So men with gender dysphoria, think they are women, then it cant be a dysphoria? Because just knowing is enough. So no need at all for any drugs or operations or counselling, because ya just know?

I know because of biology, because (even now ffs) men leer at me, try to cop a feel, make rude comments, put me down, ignore me, talk over me, mansplain at me etc.
I dont feel intrinsically like a woman, I just am. Given the choice before birth i woulda been a bloke.
Also for about two or three years in my teens I really really thought I was/should have been born Male, does that mean at that time I was Male? Because i truly believed I was in the wrong body.

and of course there are exceptions like Karen White, before anyone brings it up!). In terms of opportunities, again, that comes down to the fundamental belief again. Let's take Hampstead ponds as an example. You believe women have the right to swim without men present. I believe that transwomen are women and therefore should enjoy that same right
We cant just ignore Karen White though. And if you truly believe the I am woman because I just know, then according to you KW was in the right prison. And it's not just KW, it will now be any man that says they are a woman, because there is no definition of woman, even with you, you say it's a feeling. How can anyone know someone else's true feelings?
Sorry still pages behind

Nothing makes sense when you try to frame it around humans changing sex.

//// This this and absolutely this.

We can dance around it all we like but if like me (pinning my colours to the mast) you do not believe humans can change sex then a lesbian in a relationship with a transwoman isn't at that time having lesbian sex as the other party is a man. She can definitely still be a lesbian to me but that sex can't be.

I don't believe this is the same as being gender fluid though, important distinction (for me anyway). As again, as has been pointed out before by others an individual being fluid in their sexual preference will have no bearing on me and won't threaten me.

I still feel a bit shitty saying it though as I feel like I'm "telling " someone what they can/can't call themselves. As Datun said sexual orientation is defined in law using biology so I know it's right but as I say that last bit felt uncomfortable to write however I'm comfortable it's not homophobic.

A biological male being fluid in his gender choices could absolutely impact me.

Earlywalker for me, I got to this place when a small minority of the population wanted to claim spaces that weren't theirs, started calling others bigots for not having sex with those they weren't attracted to and when many (original genitals still intact) people began encouraging young children to change their genitals if they were in the wrong body. Consenting adults having sex with whoever they like is not on my worry radar at all.

I kind of brain dumped here so I hope this makes sense

Being gay doesn't require lifelong medical treatment and is innate. So it's neither a medical condition nor a choice. It just is.

When someone has a classic presentation of gender dysphoria, which persists past puberty and into adulthood (and not, say, a paraphilia) it most often requires invasive and life long (and life changing) medical treatment, making it clearly a disorder.

People who think it's very funny to conflate the experience of being gay or lesbian, with the experiences of non-dysphoric straight men playing out a fetish, the self ID crowd, are just twats. No medical treatment available for that, so far as I know. Probably inborn.

Is being gay a choice or a medical condition? I forget.

I was talking about being trans not being gay. I think one thing that feminists and genderists agree on is that being trans is completely different from being gay.

Being gay isn't a medical condition. I'm surprised you need to ask that.

Karen White was charged back in the early 90s for indecent exposure and sexually assaulting children. She had also been accused of rape prior to imprisonment. Given her history of offending, she should never have had access to other women prisoners
But KW is a woman? So of course a female prison is the right place, some actual women commit sexual assaults, they dont get moved out of womens prisons. They may not be in general population (I don't know because there are so few, 128 I think) but they still get to be with women, so by your reasoning so should KW and any other person that thinks they are woman.
We may soon be building a fuck load more womens prisons but hey twaw

I think one thing that feminists and genderists agree on is that being trans is completely different from being gay. Being gay isn't a medical condition. I'm surprised you need to ask that

People used to think (and some still do - not me I hasten to add) that being gay is a medical condition, you can be cured out of it or it's all in your head etc.
So I can see where the poster was coming from with that.

Is being gay a choice or a medical condition? I forget. Did you deliberately not read further posts on that?

GD is LITERALLY in your head. When you have GD your brain incorrectly perceives your body as 'wrong'. If you need a medical professional (or a group thereof - psychologists, psychiatrists, endocrinologists, surgeons) to help your cope with your condition, you have a medical condition. A disorder. Something's gone wrong.

Being gay requires nothing like that. Nobody comes out as gay and needs the endocrinologist as a result. Nobody needs their bloods taken because they are gay. Nobody needs to perform major surgery on you because you are gay.

The situations are not analogous. People were wrong to call being gay a disease or a medical condition because it's not.

People are right to call GD a medical condition because it is.

If it was not a medical condition, it would not require medical treatment.

But yeah, TRA's can't have it both ways. It can't be 'oh my god access to hormones is neccessary to stop me killing myself' AND 'totally not a disorder'.

If you are trans, and you don't have GD, then dress up how you want but the NHS has no responsibility to fund your lifestyle choices, and society has no need to accomodate your identity.

If you have GD and need a massive amount of medical and social support to manage your condition, don't tell me it's not a disorder.

Just catching up, but noticed this from earlywalker:

If I slept with buck angel, I wouldn’t consider myself a lesbian for it.

So you’d be happily licking away at Buck’s clitoris and labia and inside your head you’d be thinking “nope, doesn’t make me a lesbian/bi”?

I find this so difficult to understand. I’m not being critical but I just can’t get my head around it.

If you are trans, and you don't have GD, then dress up how you want but the NHS has no responsibility to fund your lifestyle choices, and society has no need to accomodate your identity.

If you have GD and need a massive amount of medical and social support to manage your condition, don't tell me it's not a disorder.

Totally agree. It's either a mental disorder or a choice. It's not like being gay, because being same-sex attracted is possible, but being 'born in the wrong body' or having a 'female' brain in a male body isn't.

What biological and scientific evidence is there for being gay that there isn’t for transgenderism?
Being homosexual goes against biological norms in terms of we are ‘biologyly wired’ to want to reproduce to keep the population.
So 40 odd years ago, gay people were called ‘pedophiles ’ and all sorts because it didn’t make sense to them as the only explanation was ‘a feeling’
What has changed except from acceptance?

What biological and scientific evidence is there for being gay that there isn’t for transgenderism? Really? I mean... come on

a) I spelled it out quite clearly up there
b) Do you believe human beings can chnge sex? I don't
c) Being gay does not require a cornucopia of drugs to be taken for life.

What has changed is society's apparent ability to accept the reality of unicorns!

I went to the zoo a while ago and saw two boy giraffes getting frisky. So clearly the animal kingdom are just like us.

Homosexuality doesn't affect the dignity, privacy and safety of others is another way it's different.

You said it is an inherent part of someone's psyche, how they feel, think how their brain and emotions work

The same has been said for transgender individuals.

No being gay doesn’t require drugs to be taken for life, I can imagine 60/70 years ago when they were told how they feel was wrong, not true, all in their head, made up, fetishist etc.. that they probably required anti-depressents a lot more than current day. I can also imagine it lead to a lot of angry individuals, suppressing their feelings.

homosexuality doesn’t effect the dignity, safety and privacy of others
Being transgender doesn’t automatically affect that either, the actual existing and emotions of a being transgender. At school, once a friend of mine who came out as lesbian, another friend didn’t want her in the changing rooms Incase she was ‘staring at her naked’ I don’t think it’s uncommon that some (homophobic people) hold similar opinions about homosexual people.