to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Of all the activities to elicit a 'genital preference', I'd expect those involving the genitals to be near the top of the list...

🤣

Quite.

In order to make the world safer and fairer for women, we need natal women-only spaces. That excludes males whether trans or not, and females who identify as transmen, thereby choosing to opt themselves out of the category of woman. Basically two categories of Women, and Everyone Else.

This is why I've been saying that the solution for transmen doesn't have to be an equal and opposite mirror image of the solution for transwomen.

Men need single sex spaces for privacy and dignity. Women need them for privacy, dignity and safety. Women need their own sporting events for the purpose of fair competition - mixed sex events would favour men, and men wouldn't be impacted by the inclusion of women in their events.

The situation for women is not the same as for men, so the solutions for transmen and transwomen might also be different.

I totally agree with the ‘two categories’ idea.

OldCrone

How do you propose to move anything forward then?

You ahve some people arguing that we have a free for all - up to the individual to decide into which category they fit.

Then others saying no, humans can't change sex. Trans men are female and trans women are male and each must stay with their natal sex. Then others saying some trans men should be included with women, others should be included with men. Others yet saying it should be women and then everyone else.

Then others saying the best way forward is single occupancy cubicles. Others saying no, absolutely not.

It's like knitting spaghetti. Some common ground has to be found in order to begin sorting this out.

I know the threads moved on and I haven't caught up with all the posts yet but regarding this:

I'm willing to accept a slight increase in the risk to natal women in order to protect transwomen

I would like to know, does this mean that you are in agreement with removing safeguarding for all women and children?

Because, in effect, that is what you are advocating here.

Men need single sex spaces for privacy and dignity. Women need them for privacy, dignity and safety

So can you explain your idea for ensuring that both of the above are satisfied?

I'm willing to accept a slight increase in the risk to natal women in order to protect transwomen

In other words 'im willing to accept a risk to women and girls in order to protect male transpeople'

So can you explain your idea for ensuring that both of the above are satisfied?

I agree with StroppyWoman: "Basically two categories of Women, and Everyone Else."

I'm willing to accept a slight increase in the risk to natal women in order to protect transwomen.

That’s good, so long as you’re the one willing to be harassed, sexually assaulted or raped, in order to protect the other women. As a victim of sexual violence committed towards me by men, I don’t want to put myself at risk again. You are, aren’t you? Come back when it happens to you and tell it that it worth it, just to save the men.

Michelle I am so sorry that you feel you have to justify your sexuality. On a feminist forum. This is why for me we can talk about it all we like, but I can't compromise on this.
Janeskettle thankyou for your thoughtful posts.
The rewriting of other peoples reality causes me great concern as well. For example the victims of Karen white, how dare people tell them that what they experienced was sexual assault by a woman, how dare they tell those women that.

OldCrone

But you said that men are entitled to privacy and dignity - maybe they don't want trans men seeing them using a urinal or getting changed at the gym?

So, women and everyone else doesn't afford privacy or dignity to many people other than women does it?

But you said that men are entitled to privacy and dignity - maybe they don't want trans men seeing them using a urinal or getting changed at the gym?

Have you asked them? Maybe they don't care. And if they do, maybe it's about time they started to get involved in this discussion, instead of just leaving it to women.

Have you asked them? Maybe they don't care.

What, all the men? Some men can't consent on behalf of all men can they?

I don't know, Decomposing. You seem to have an awful lot of questions, but not a single answer. Maybe you should go off and have a think about what your answers are.

I've never understood the argument that if you're attracted to someone before you know what's in their pants, then it obviously doesn't matter.

If we say that is true, then it's definitely true that you also don't know their gender identity or what is in their head.

Lesbians and gay, bisexual, straight people simply wouldn't exist in that world because you would never know a person's sex or gender identity unless they told you - and therefore it shouldn't matter, right?

Wrong, in my belief.

Rightly or wrongly, gender performance has always partly been used to 'advertise' what is in your pants without explicitly showing it.

We are decoupling sex and gender performance - very good, and overdue.
But this doesn't mean sexual orientation doesn't exist, we're just not going to have the same 'flashing neon signs' that say 'female here' or 'male here'.
Something I think society could adjust to just fine in time, but would require honesty and an understanding that sex is sex, and gender identity is gender identity, and the two are not the same.

My answer is - there are no answers apart from third spaces but that only solves part of the problem.

It doesn't solve people being classified as their natal sex post transition for purposes of things like jobs etc. As in the case of trans men HCP - if they are considered female then that is likely to cause issues as would classing trans women hcps as male cause issues for male patients who request male hcps.

Hi all

I've done a lot of thinking today. No, I'm afraid I haven't been peak transed, don't get too excited. But I have realised that I was completely wrong to talk about genital preference and to subconsciously negate the lived experience of the lesbians on this thread. It truly wasn't my intention but I can absolutely see that I did it regardless.

I'm bisexual so it's hard for me to understand the idea that male or female biology (and here I refer not to genitals but to everything Michelle so thoughtfully described) couid be such a dealbreaker but having spent time thinking about it and reading your posts I can see how blinkered I was being to think that way. I was wrong and I'm sorry.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to explain their perspectives and I apologise unreservedly for making homophobic comments - I promise I'm not homophobic in day to day life but I was in this instance and I'm really ashamed of myself. I'm truly sorry. I've learnt from this thread and it absolutely had changed my point in of view. I can assure you that should it come up in conversations with "the other side", so to speak, I will continue to robustly defend anyone's right to rule out a sexual relationship with anyone, for any reason, and I'll do so with more clarity around this issue.

I'm not back to debate any further on the rest of the issues and I'm not going to read any of the rest of the thread that I missed (or further posts) but I wanted to apologise to everyone I offended with that specific point.

Sexual orientation - if a man is attracted to a female looking person who he then finds out is trans does that make the man gay then?

Or, as was on a thread the other day, woman was out with her friend who is a trans man in his 40s. The friend chatted up a young woman at a bar on the night out and they kissed. The young woman did not know that the person they were kissing was a trans man. Does that make the woman (who clearly thought she was kissing a man) a lesbian?

Just two categories won't be enough.
Men need private spaces too... Hospital wards (particularly older arrangements where rooms or wards are shared rather than individual rooms) are one example.

I can't quote it because I can't remember where I saw it, but I'm sure there's been research into patient outcomes and mixed Vs single sex wards, with single sex being better for everyone.
It would make some men uncomfortable to be sharing with a trans-man, and that should be respected too.

I agree that it's something for men to be discussing, rather than for women to organise... But it feel like the whole transgender movement has somewhat bypassed their collective consciousness, it's only when in hospital wearing nothing but a gown with a trans-man in the next bed over, that they'll actually start paying attention.

Sorry if I'm a bit rambling, I've been unwell (my head feels... floaty) but following the discussion as best I can!

I'm not sure that men are ignoring this. I've only really seen it talked about in any detail on MN - what's the equivalent for men? What media like this aimed at men, is there?

Twitter.

So many posters comment on here that they are grateful for this site because this isn't being discussed in real life, or that they hadn't realised the situation until they saw it on here - and these posters aren't men, so I don't think men are choosing to ignore the discussion I just don't think it's out in the mainstream yet.

Peach I appreciate that you've shared having other thoughts about it, thank you for recognising my pov, but you really don't have to apologise like that here. This is a conversation and a plain recognition of someone else's point is nice but not demanded. No one ever gets told to DIAF around here no matter what their opinion, and if you were honestly, frankly homophobic it wouldn't matter. I'd just go on putting my point of view across and it would be different to yours.

Note to the eyes in the sky: this is how grown ups have conversations. Notice the lack of drama and abuse?

Twitter

Really? It's hardly the same as MN is it and would you recommend other women go to Twitter in order to educate themselves on this issue?

So peach realises that sex is based on biology for orientation purposes? Because, heaven fucking forfend that anyone 'progressive' should be accused of homophobia.

But it's not based on sex in terms of sexism? Or anything else?