to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Perhaps we need a definition of a woman and a definition of a man first. No one dares do this as it would offend the trans people

We have a definition of woman and man - that is the problem isn't it? The TRA moment want us to completely redefine those meanings. Without exception.
And that is why there can be no compromise.

I don't think men are choosing to ignore the discussion I just don't think it's out in the mainstream yet.

I think that's true. Women are more aware because some women have already experienced the effects of letting people self-identify as the opposite sex, in sports, changing rooms etc. This is partly because transwomen tend to be more entitled and pushy than transmen (I wonder why that might be...?), partly because of numbers (in adults there are more MtF than FtM) and partly because of the safety aspect (a transman might be too scared to use an all-male space, because it's the transman who might be in danger, not the men). Obviously in sports there isn't the same issue for men.

I think a lot of men don't even think there's a discussion that needs to take place. It's always going to be something that affects women more than men.

I don't think men are choosing to ignore the discussion I just don't think it's out in the mainstream yet.

Agreed.

But also because transmen are not clamouring to get into men's prisons, or changing rooms. They are not demanding to be included in men's sport, and it wouldn't matter if they were.

They're not making a song and dance about men's toilets, because they don't want to advertise the fact that there are woman in a male environment, presumably.

Women are not threat to men. Either in terms of safety, or sport.

Decomposing if a straight man finds he's sexually attracted to someone who is biologically male then maybe he'd give some thought to whether instead of being straight he was to some degree bi. And same with the case with the female you describe. Homosexual - still means exclusively attracted to the opposite sex. There are a whole lot of other definitions to choose from if that one doesn't fit.

Women are more aware...

That should be some women, even many women but it isn't all women or even the majority of women. No women that I speak to have been aware of this - it's only been me raising it based on what I've read on here that has brought it to their attention.

What media like this aimed at men, is there?

Haha

Men have the rest of the internet. There are very few places women can gather to discuss this without being abused.

And yes, there is a Dadsnet but not many men use it.

Michelleoftheresistance

Even if they had no idea?

Do you really believe that a straight woman, attracted to a muscular person with a beard, who later turns out to be a trans man really needs to consider if she's actually attracted to women?

I'm really struggling to understand that, sorry.

Fairenuff

I'm not having a go. I'm just saying that it is discussed widely on here which is why we know about it. But if you don't come on here where would you find out about it?

The fact that many men aren't discussing it might simply be that they don't know about it, rather than they do know but are choosing to ignore it.

Women are more aware...

You seem determined to nitpick everything I say. Perhaps it would have been clearer to you if I'd said 'There are more women (than men) who are aware...' Is that better? I thought my meaning was clear from the context, but maybe not...

Lesbians and gay, bisexual, straight people simply wouldn't exist in that world because you would never know a person's sex or gender identity unless they told you - and therefore it shouldn't matter, right?

I think the theory is that you find a certain "look" attractive. If someone has it they will be attractive to you irrespective of chromosome or how they identify. If they don't then they won't, again irrespective of either factor. I think it is fair to say that that much is true.

Thee main difference of opinion, from what I can see, is that some reject the assumption that sexuality is demarcated by chromosome. They think this belief "conditions" people into thinking that thare not supposed
to find this person attractive or that person attractive, when "naturally" they could have (as proven by the situations were someone does find the "wrong" person attractive before they knew they werent supposed to).

Whether you agree with that or not, it doesn't mean that there are no bisexuals or gays or straights. We'd all be bisexual according to the traditional definitions. And there would still be gays and straights though not in the classical sense. But people would still use these terms as the closest fit. So heir meanings would change.

Do you think sometimes using the line ‘it’s all so homophobic’ and using lesbians as a gotcha constantly, is probably, actually quite homophobic.
I have a friend who’s a transman, he’s been chatted up by straight woman plenty of times, and loads of gay men too. You like what you like.
Is it not homophobic to tell a lesbian, who considers herself a lesbian and is in a relationship with a transwoman - that she’s not allowed to call herself a lesbian anymore?
If a lesbian doesn’t want to date a transwoman, that is completely her choice. Everyone has free will and are allowed preferences and boundaries. But if she wants to date a transwoman because she is attractive to her then that doesn’t mean she can’t call herself a lesbian.

I know you're not having a go. It just made me laugh. I think men do know about it. Most of us have spoken to our partners and of course the sports issue will have reached lots of men.

I really think they just don't care because it doesn't affect them.

Gaslighting.

No. Not homophobic to stand up against lesbian erasure. Lesbians are female people, exclusively attracted to other female people. End of.

I don't think men are choosing to ignore the discussion I just don't think it's out in the mainstream yet.

Some of us aren't ignoring the discussion, and there are quite a few youtubers etc. that are very vocal about transwomen in sports/women only spaces.

But one of the problems is that some of these men aren't people that you would want to be associated with (not racist but definitely right wing) Ben Shipiro would be an example.

Sexual orientation - if a man is attracted to a female looking person who he then finds out is trans does that make the man gay then?

When people hide their sex from sexual partners, it often doesn't work out well.

www.newsweek.com/transgender-man-prosthetic-penis-sexual-assault-women-1104210

www.standard.co.uk/news/world/transgender-woman-stabbed-119-times-by-man-she-met-on-dating-site-a3597326.html

Where was Andy Murray when Martina was under fire?

some of these men aren't people that you would want to be associated with

Donald Trump for another

ILikeYourLittleHat

Yes, but reducing lesbians to their genitals - 'oh, it's just a genital preference' is not OK.

Lesbians are female PEOPLE first, to their lovers, not walking fannies.

Lesbians are female people (who possess natal vulvas/vaginas) who are attracted exclusively to other female people (who possess natal vulvas/vaginas). They are not some kind of genital fetishists.

Why is it lesbian erasure solely? By that logic is it gay erasure to think a gay man might sleep with a transman? Is it heterosexual erasure to say straight people may be attracted to trans people?
Or do you think maybe you should but out of trying to label people and who they can and can’t sleep with in order to fit in your perfectly defined boxes? Isn’t that how we got here in the first place?

No one should be forced to sleep with/fancy/whatever anyone who they do not want too, under any circumstances. But you have no right to tell gay/straight/lesbian people that they are not actually [their sexual orientation] if they include transgender individuals in their preference.

Earlywalker
Why is it lesbian erasure solely?

Because its mainly lesbians are that are being focused on by the more extreme transwomen groups.

Or do you think maybe you should but out of trying to label people and who they can and can’t sleep with in order to fit in your perfectly defined boxes?

Isn't that what these TRA groups are doing?

Janes oh I completely agree. I think it's a bizarre term.

EarlyWalker

Of course it's gay erasure to say that there's no such thing as exclusive male to male sexual orientation. Don't be silly.

I'll butt out when 'progressives' stop trying to undermine the reality of same sex orientation, and cease trying to redefine it as same gender. Not everyone on the planet is freaking bi. Have some respect.

you have no right to tell gay/straight/lesbian people that they are not actually [their sexual orientation] if they include transgender individuals in their preference.

No, you have no right to insist that terms that express homosexuality be adapted to mean other things now because other people want to choose that label for themselves in the name of personal freedom and not be fettered by it being factually inaccurate or damaging to others. It's the same argument about 'what is a woman'.

The whole point of the nit picking around this is trying to undo the boundaries that homosexual means same sex attracted. It's about trying to make freedom of personal choice more important to respect than fact, and to make it taboo to talk about the damage this does to others. The purpose of which in this particular case is to make it unacceptable for women to choose a sexuality that excludes men.

If that's your belief, own it.

Right so if your son comes to you and says he finds Monroe Burgdoff attractive, will you tell him he’s gay?
Because I thought we were trying to move away from labelling people so hastily?