to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

The frustration with questions going unanswered isn't to do with any single poster. Questions are never answered, over multiple platforms, conversations, in many modes, from scrupulously polite to bemused to desperate, at least not in my experience. My experience is that parent support groups, for example, actively discourage questions!

YetAnother

I understand.

Not sure what the cost was. It is in a community centre, so I don't believe it would have been prohibitive.

And actually, there's a very similar one in my local supermarket. I wish I had photos, because I'm not describing it very well (would be a bit odd to take pics of the loo though). I personally feel safer in these loos, as they are not down a long corridor, like the women's in my local shopping centre, but I totally get not everyone would.

And now I think of it, we probably can afford these type of facilities, as I live somewhere that hasn't been battling austerity for a decade, and in a council area that is relatively well off. So yes, there's some economic privilege in my ability to enjoy well designed unisex loos, and that is not the case in all places, or even most places. Thanks for pulling me up on that, and thinking beyond my initial enthusiasm.

One question that hasn't ever really been answered is 'What is transgenderism?' What does it mean to be transgender? Is it a medical condition or a lifestyle choice or something else? The solutions, and how much compromise other people should be prepared to make in order to accommodate transgender people, depend on what transgenderism really is.

Until quite recently, I thought that being transgender meant having a diagnosable mental condition that made someone reject the sex of their body and felt the need to change it to resemble the opposite sex. That made me quite sympathetic towards people who suffer from that condition. But now it seems to be 'a man is a woman if he thinks/says he is', which makes no sense to me.

And now I think of it, we probably can afford these type of facilities, as I live somewhere that hasn't been battling austerity for a decade, and in a council area that is relatively well off

I can see that civic centres and suchlike might be able to afford them, but public toilets are in diverse places, some public, some private and some remote and not all could.

I'm

Yep, agreed, not all can. Where they exist, it's a great addition to same sex provision, that's all.

Personally on the topic of toilets, and bearing in mind a long long time ago I used to have to use the standard design measurements to draught up new developments, I think the whole toilet design needs overhauling.

We need to get a team of designers into a large room with an array of people from all walks of life with differing needs and not leave until there is a range of facilities that meet the needs of all users at different price points and for different volumes of users. The ones we have now are not even fit for purpose.

I've literally just been into a public toilet where a man could easily block a woman entering or exiting, where a woman was in the loo and her two kids, one in a buggy one standing, were in the space blocking 3 of the 4 loos. So many areas of risk in just one facility.

We need to get a team of designers into a large room with an array of people from all walks of life with differing needs and not leave until there is a range of facilities that meet the needs of all users at different price points and for different volumes of users. The ones we have now are not even fit for purpose

I agree. Also at issue are adult changing facilities for adults who must wear pull-ups or nappies and who must be changed by a carer. There are very few such facilities.

Johnathan Van Ness has just announced that some days he feels like a man, some days he feels like a woman. I wish he could be a very public, very popular camp gay man- and be a role model for “broadening the bandwidth of masculinity”.

some days he feels like a man, some days he feels like a woman

It's stuff like this that makes no sense to me. Does he just mean that on some days he feels masculine and some days feminine?

People seem to have got very confused about the difference between male/female (or man/woman) and masculine/feminine.

Male, female, man and woman are not 'feelings', they're based on biology. The feelings can be described as masculine or feminine.

It is as if people think that men are not allowed to feel feminine and women are not allowed to feel masculine. There must be something else to it

Everyone has been very polite and patient and calm. They even thanked the poster.

Interesting that, isn't it?

We've all managed to stay civil - if frustrated - and not told Peach she should fuck off, die in a fire, be violently raped or get cancer. Thousands of people have eyeballed this thread and had that chance 24hours a day since it started. Not one single threat of doxxing or harassment. In fact barely a swear word by MN standards.

Equally, none of The Eyes monitoring the board have had the guts to come forward and stand with her (or Decomposing) either. Bullies always do turn out to be cowards in the end.

Buzz why would people who agree with those posters be ‘bullies’?

Johnathan Van Ness has just announced that some days he feels like a man, some days he feels like a woman

Well, a man can feel like any of those things, then, because he's a man and feels that way.

Anything that a woman or girl feels is a female feeling, and anything that a man or boy feels is a male feeling.

Anything that goes on in a female brain is a feature of a female brain, and anything in a male brain is a feature of a male brain - even if the range is broader than we'd thought.

There's huge overlap in all those areas but not in sex. The big differences are in body type, not brain.

It's all such tosh. Deeply heartfelt tosh or taking the piss tosh, but tosh.

I think I'd probably better go and get myself deleted before I spontaneously combust at the lack of logic.

everyone in my life - including the gay people - are trans-inclusive and their attraction (or not) to someone is not based on their genitals.

Ok, trying hard to be patient and polite here. This is what happens when people appropriate words to mean what they want them to mean and not what they actually mean, in order to fit their personal preferences.

Gay people who are trans inclusive are not homosexual, using those words doesn't make it so, it's just dismissive and erasing of actual homosexuals. It's like redefining yourself as a vegan who is meat and dairy inclusive and then looking down on other vegans who are bigoted about eating meat.

Homosexual means exclusively attracted to someone of the same biological class. If you're attracted to people regardless of their biological class then that's just as great, but it's called bi, or something else, not homosexual.

And I'd appreciate it if you could stop implying that people are just neutral bodies with genitals tacked on instead of two separate biological classes. As a lesbian it isn't the contents of someone's pants I'm attracted to, it's the shape of a woman, the way a woman moves, and I'm equally neutral to the shape of a man, the scent of a man, the proportions of a man, the way a man moves. This is the erasing of people's identities and realities and belittling them in order to promote a political agenda, and only one biological class benefits.

As for another question that keeps coming up - why do women care about transmen? Because they are biologically female, they belong to our sex class, they share our biological needs and oppressions and requirements for the resources we endlessly have to keep fighting for, and the ones that end up detransitioning and suffering from this agenda are desperately going to need us, because it won't be men who step up to support them and organise for what they need.

As an aside: I can't believe I am actually having to justify why I know I'm sexually attracted to women. It's like the last 50 years never happened.

Do men ever get expected to defend why they know they're straight?

If I was looking for a friendship my “genital preference” would of course be irrelevant. If I was looking for a sexual partner then it would be very relevant. I can’t understand why this is even remotely controversial. Of all the things i’ve read the “once they get over their genital hang ups, most lesbians cope very well” was one of the most shocking.

Fantastic posts, Michelle.

Michelleoftheresistance

Do men ever get expected to defend why they know they're straight?

Only in regards to Transwomen and why they don't want to sleep with someone with a penis.

Enjoyed reading all of this, thanks to everyone involved.

Where I think Decomposing is wrong is when she suggests separation by sex has to apply to both male and female things.

A principle reason for single sex provision is because the class of females are particularly vulnerable to assault (sexual or otherwise) by males. We cannot compete physically, except in flexibility sport like gymnastics and we are under-represented in positions of power and influence.

In order to make the world safer and fairer for women, we need natal women-only spaces. That excludes males whether trans or not, and females who identify as transmen, thereby choosing to opt themselves out of the category of woman. Basically two categories of Women, and Everyone Else.

Personally I'd be happy for the so-called 3rd spaces. However, all the TRA seem to want to do is to colonise female only places in some sort of validation exercise, and thus I think it's unlikely to be acceptable to them.

Early Buzz why would people who agree with those posters be ‘bullies’?

I was referring to the people who issue the online death threats and claim to want other people to die in grease fires for disagreeing etc.

Why are they not here with Peach? We know they watch the board avidly, and here was their chance to stand up with someone who agrees with their (general) position.

Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

In order to make the world safer and fairer for women, we need natal women-only spaces. That excludes males whether trans or not, and females who identify as transmen, thereby choosing to opt themselves out of the category of woman. Basically two categories of Women, and Everyone Else.

But no one seems to agree on this. Many posters argue that trans men are female and so must be included in female spaces.

Of all the activities to elicit a 'genital preference', I'd expect those involving the genitals to be near the top of the list...

But no one seems to agree on this.

That's because this isn't an echo chamber, it's a forum where people have different points of view and discuss them. Quite unusual these days, so I understand that some people might not be familiar with the concept, but it's not a bad thing is it? What do you think?