to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

JanesKettle

I understand your points.

I think you raise interesting issues - it seems that this is not going to be a simple issue to solve. It isn't as easy as saying trans men segregated bwithnwomen, trans women with men is it? There appears to be a need for more nuanced segregation and to me, that looks to be where the real sticking point will be. No one in day to day life is going to be able to distinguish a trans man on T, from a trans man not on T or a natal man. In amateur sport, clubs aren't going to be able to test people to see if they are on T or not.

How will we police this on a day to day basis?

The risk is as low as any other woman.

Is it though? I've definitely seen stats posted on MN showing that trans men on T tend to follow a more typical male pattern of offending. It was definitely higher than a female pattern.

Why can't trans people police this themselves ?

I'm not going to treat them like they are in some category of ethical infancy. They can make good, ethical choices, just as much as any of us can. I hate it when trans people are inadvertently treated as if they are somehow less capable of empathy for others, of critical thinking, of making hard choices. Keep the bar low, people live up to it. Keep it high, people will live up to it....maybe.

Idk. I know and know of trans people who do the above - make ethical choices. Trans people are not a monolith.

Datun re JH
Just so grim. OTOH fantastic to see how much backing Jean is getting!

I genuinely believe that the reason people feel overwhelmed isn't because everyone is asking them (although that's probably a bit alarming), but because the answers fall flat on their face.

I don't agree. The reason why it feels overwhelming on these threads is because it is. When you are one person being bombarded by half a dozen other people it is overwhelming. While you are answering one post another 5 pop up all demanding that you answer their questions. It's impossible to do.

I don't blame her for leaving and I think it's a bit off that now that's she gone, people are still continuing to have a dig at her (not at her views, but at how she left and why). People are right to step away when they feel pushed to their limits. Why do posters on here think it's ok to push at people's boundaries - isn't that the very thing you are arguing against, yet you yourselves are happy to do it?

JanesKettle

How do they police it themselves though? Isn't that self ID? And that's what's causing this furore in part, that people shouldn't be able to go wherever they think best suits them.

If your child transitions fully, what toilets or changing rooms do you think they should have to use when out?

Just so grim

It didn't take long did it for the trans woman who said they wanted to ride to start with the abuse. Men do not like women saying no do they?

I genuinely believe that the reason people feel overwhelmed isn't because everyone is asking them (although that's probably a bit alarming), but because the answers fall flat on their face.

"I don't agree."

I'm not saying you don't have a point. I've been on threads when I've been in a minority of one. But, the difference is, I can justify my viewpoint.

The whole thread was asking how we can solve certain problems. If one's answers to that is to provide even more, worse problems, one should expect to be challenged.

Decomposing

I answered the question about my child earlier in the thread. Basically, I hope as an adult he makes ethical choices re using women's space.

I don't consider him to be at any more risk in the men's as a transwoman than I do as an effeminate gay man, and gay men can't use women's spaces to protect themselves.

I would promote provision of private, enclosed, sink included, floor to ceiling gender neutral provision in my city, and work with him, and any trans people, on that project.

How can people self police ? By being honest with themselves. Do they really NEED Hampstead Ladies Pond, as a male person who feels themselves to be gendered 'woman', when they have a mixed pond ? Do they really NEED to try to shut down women only refuges when they could raise funds for trans refuges ? Is it any more difficult than understanding why I, a white woman, probably shouldn't barge in on an indigenous women's group and decide it should meet my needs ?

I do think allies have a lot to answer for in encouraging maladaptive ways of thinking that obscure a person's sense of reality. I'm not suggesting it is easy for people with GD. It isn't. It's bloody hard. But they are as fully human as you and me, and yes, that means we can expect them to behave as ethically as we would expect others.

I also expect men to come to the table, and work amongst themselves to solve the problem of male violence, so that gay men and transwomen aren't at any risk in male spaces. Men are also fully human, and can be expected to engage in this work.

Datun

But the way that things are conducted on here it becomes very difficult for one person to justify their viewpoint when faced with a barrage of questions.

While you are trying to answer one question half a dozen more, unrelated, questions bare fired at you. If you don't answer one then people start picking at you for not answering btheir question, yet loads of other questions bgo unanswered band that is seemingly fine. It's just when the group decide to turn on one poster in particular that the demanding and not picking starts.

If you, in good faith, want a proper discussion then it has to be done with respect for different opinions. Bertrand has been trying to keep the tone civil and, actually, I am surprised how respectful it has been but it's really uncomfortable watching just one poster being picked on again and again just for trying to debate in good faith.

Disagreement isn't picking on someone. If you are in a minority, that's just how the ratio is going to pan out.

Everyone has been very polite and patient and calm. They even thanked the poster.

Being in the minority is not as reassuring as being in the majority. But if you're going to voice an opinion, you have to expect it to be challenged.

I don't know any other way of managing a debate?

So as regards Hampstead Ponds, I agree, I don't get why it has happened. That being said, all of these instances involve a relatively small number of very vocal activists. Are they representative of the trans community? I doubt it. Just as the racist idiots who join the Brexit matches aren't representative of British people.

With regards your son - do you honestly think that if he transitions bthat it's right that he has to go into the men's toilet? I'm not talking about from a safety point of view, I'm talking from a dignity/privacy perspective?

Yes, I agree that single self contained cubicles are they way to go but I have had so many arguments with people on here who disagree and do not want that under any circumstances.

It seems that any solution that might help to bridge this divide is dismissed with certain people demanding that the only suitable solution is for things to remain as they are now. I don't agree. Yes, protect safety but then you are going to have to adapt to make sure that the needs of everyone are met.

That being said, all of these instances involve a relatively small number of very vocal activists.

Edward the Lord is in charge of the entire Corporation of London facility. It's not just Hampstead heath ponds, it's everything under that control.

Not Edward THE Lord. Edward Lord.

My AutoCorrect conferred a knighthood

I think these things are covered quite a lot here.

So as regards Hampstead Ponds, I agree, I don't get why it has happened

It happened because they ignored half the responses to the consultation by using deliberately confusing terminology which meant that those correcting them about the terminology were immediately ignored as not answering the consultation correctly.

When this sort of gaming of the system is allowed then is it any wonder women lose and men win? Every time.

I'm happy for ANYONE at all on the pro-trans inclusion in single sex spaces side of things to answer any of my questions. Doesn't have to be a particular poster.

I'd really like to know, if society is reorganised around this article of faith - that males can be females and vice versa - what happens to the heretics ? The people who simply cannot believe this ?

The only way I would believe the above is if, after years and years of high quality research, replicated again and again, peer reviewed, concluded there was actual evidence of sperm producers becoming ova producers, and vice versa.

So until then, what happens to people who are - for want of a better phrase - conscientious objectors ? Not people who subject trans people to hate, or call them disgusting, or beat them up, or for them to be kicked out of housing - just women, who wish to maintain the extremely limited same sex provision that currently exists, and be free to object to a faith in gender they don't share, without repercussion ?

What happens to them ? Will they just be encouraged to stay at home ? Will they be subject to laws criminalising their beliefs and the statement of ? Will they be subject to social coercion, including firing ? Will they be allowed to parent their GD and/or trans kids ?

I would promote provision of private, enclosed, sink included, floor to ceiling gender neutral provision in my city, and work with him, and any trans people, on that project

Provided that there is still a 'women's only' area for biological women.

Decomposing

Yes, I would think it was the right choice, in the absence of freely given permission from all women affected,for him, if he transitions, to use the men's (if gender neutral wasn't available, which thankfully in my town, it is). It is not undignified for a male to use male provision. The real problem is homophobia, not lack of privacy or dignity.

I know there are good men out there trying to broaden the bandwidth of maleness to include gender non conforming, gay and gender dysphoric males, and I think they are doing much to enable GNC, gay and GD males to live with dignity.

YetAnotherSpartacus

A place we go to has excellent unisex provision. It's safe, women with prams can get in, no long creepy corridors, enough provision for users of the place to not have to wait for a long time. I'd actually give up women's and men's if everywhere had design this good, and that's a recent change in view from me, based on that experience. I find it more comfortable than the women's, and it is kept scrupulously clean.

Until everyone has such excellent design for unisex loos, yes, unisex plus women's plus men's, agreed.

Twitter is interesting in terms of debate. I am a very occasional and very mild tweeter on trans issues, but I am blocked by an enormous number of TRA and trans-inclusive feminists. If my experience is universal, these people must be operating in the most echo-y echo chamber going. Particularly as Twitter itself seems to be very trans-inclusive.

Whatever your viewpoint you need the patience of a saint to answer every q in a big forum like this. I like the term 'trans google', there is a person I would love to pick their brains on this but I know they find it incredibly wearing to be the trans Google and, understandably, suspicious of people online 'innocently' asking every question under the sun to scrutinise their beliefs.

I wish it were more common to do so in a civil way so more ppl might join in.

I disagree about the toilets. I would not feel safe. At least if you know that a space is women only you can 'call out' (or in my case, blow a rape whistle) if a suspicious man (man acting suspiciously) appears. In a unisex facility, you cannot do this.

YetAnother

No-one can get into the unisex loos at this place other than the user. They are single rooms. It would be hard for someone to hide in there, and not be seen until another person entered and locked the door, but next time I will go, I will check that.
They are also in sight of the reception, and have a button to push if assistance is required.

However, as long as one woman prefers single sex provision as well as unisex, I say she gets it! So I would never advocate its removal in the face of protest, although my own personal views have shifted.

No-one can get into the unisex loos at this place other than the user. They are single rooms. It would be hard for someone to hide in there, and not be seen until another person entered and locked the door, but next time I will go, I will check that

I would be more worried about being jumped on as I exited.

In reality though, unless we are talking expensive set-ups this type of toilet arrangement is a bit utopian. For your average set-up, the costs would be inhibitive.