to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

The problem about 3rd spaces as I see it, is that many trans women do not want them. I don’t know about trans men- we very rarely hear their point of view.

Honestly? I don't like the idea of segregating trans men and women either but compromises have to be made. I don't think the third space should be a "trans" space because it feels to "othering". It should be a true third space.

At that point then, it needs to be enforced and made clear that it's that option or not using the facility. Everyone has to be accommodated and one group can't over ride another group.

Datun oddly enough a few other threads over the weekend/end of last week proposed the "but what if you woke up tomorrow in the body of a man?" nonsense question!

Definitely some creative thinkers out there

And as I keep saying, the Hampstead Ponds illustrates the issue.

Datun oddly enough a few other threads over the weekend/end of last week proposed the "but what if you woke up tomorrow in the body of a man?" nonsense question!

Yeah, it's a recurring theme.

Of course, if you woke up in the body of a man, you would actually be a man. Because the description of a biological man is someone who has the reproductive potential of that sex.

The idea that the way you think determines your sex is, certainly to me, not only sexist, but, well...daft.

It would be interesting though to take your full female socialisation with you into the body of a man. That’s part of the problem isn’t it- transwomen have frequently been socialised as men so act and have expectations accordingly.

Many don't seem to particularly enjoy being treated as women.

It would be interesting though to take your full female socialisation with you into the body of a man.

Yes, it would. I have yet to see it, or recognise it in anyone.

But it would certainly make a good movie!

And as I keep saying, the Hampstead Ponds illustrates the issue

Yes but thats because everything is so wishy washy about the whole TWAW thing

If honest ‘anyone can use them’ third spaces were created and single sex spaces enforced then that should work...in theory

Many don't seem to particularly enjoy being treated as women.

This is what I would like to actually see.

The vulnerability, the knowledge of that vulnerability, the talking over you, the disregarding you, The things that a lot of women think are normal, and those who don't think they should be become infuriated.

But, all men think are normal. Like the sky is blue.

If it became enforced law that TG people had to have a GRC to use their desired sex facilities such as toilets, don’t you think more TW would be happier to third space and biological facilities prior to having GRCs and the whole ‘let me in’ thing would be less prominent?
At the moment, personally I think the rules around GRCs are pretty good. I also understand that the number of TG people who have them is relatively small. This could possibly help those who have genuine GD to use facilities as stated and filter out others.

If anyone is in any doubt about what transwomen think about third spaces, listen to what Helen Belcher has to say. Watch from about 18 mins in to hear Belcher say that this is not what Belcher wants.

At that point then, it needs to be enforced and made clear that it's that option or not using the facility. Everyone has to be accommodated and one group can't over ride another group.

So our choices are:

a) lose single sex spaces
b) women campaign for third spaces on behalf of trans people
c) enforce third spaces on trans people and make their options clear

Who would do all the enforcing and making options clear if we went for c?

Trans activists are adults and I am not their mum. I have no more wish to 'enforce' a solution on trans people than I have a wish to do all the work for them.

Single sex spaces and services are not actually women's problem. We're very happy with them. They're a problem for trans people who are unhappy using the appropriate facilities for their sex.

I propose:

d) trans people come up with their own campaigns for their own solutions that meet their needs and uphold their rights without trampling all over women's rights or destroying the facilities and services that meet our needs.

Why can't they be expected to do this? Why jump straight from expecting women to campaign for tw interests to expecting us (somebody else? who?)to enforce a solution on them? It's really weird.

Third spaces would seem the obvious option but maybe trans people can come up with something even better. Who knows. They know their own needs better than I do.

Anything that met d) would have a lot of support from women.

Good thread bertrand

But i dont think ive anything else to say so I’ll bow out

Sorry, I am on 12 hour days, after doing 4 12 hours nights out 5 and only having 24 hours to recover. So tired and as I keep saying thick.
But i misread a sudden influx of people all seeming to say peachsgreen was wrong with her and her childs thoughts, again sorry, but peachsgreen seem to polite and patient, it seemed unfair.

Sack
So called radical feminist, as i dont think they are that radical I would say many are mainstream feminist views( I admit I may have that so wrong)
So what I meant was the TRA are the real extremist problem.

So sorry, told you all I don't have English O level and I really struggle to explain myself. I find it hard to understand peoples reasoning on the internet with out body language and tone of voice.
So I misread post like getting it wrong about picking on peachs, and then crappily explain myself and p*ss off others.

I really hope you can all find a solution. All people deserve to live a life in peace and without fear.
I real do believe trans and feminists have more in common than against each other.
I just fear, like in brexit, both are been played by extremists and both could end up losing. Just like all of us in brexit.
I real wish this divided country could regroup and rejoin.
I have 2 boys and I fear for their futures.

So sorry really wish I hadn't joined now. It is so depressing. Good night and thank you bertrandrussell for having the guts to start the thread and all posters for your thoughtful insights. I wish I was that clever. I will lurk and learn.

Fascinating to watch that video from 9 months ago OldCrone.

It didn't strike me at the time how easily and quickly Aimee Challenor, Helen Belcher and the woman from Diva each changed the subject completely when asked a difficult question. And how they were allowed to do that.

I wish we had had someone a bit more forthright than Ruth Serwotka putting the case for women.

I hope Debbie's embarrassed.

So called radical feminist, as i dont think they are that radical

That is not what it means. You might want to do some research?

"but what if you woke up tomorrow in the body of a man?" nonsense question!

I haven't seen this on other threads that I recall (not doubting it's there, just haven't read it) but interesting that this 'thought experiment' is dismissed here as that's what made me realise (over a year ago) I don't ID as 'female' gender! Or indeed have any gender identity. And probably led to me identifying as GC.

2Boys not to sound teachy but you might be making the mistake of thinking Radical Feminists are called 'radical' because they're extreme. Instead it means you believe a 'radical' reordering of the fundamentally patriarchal society is the only way to achieve equality (yes I did have to google that to check and have paraphrased).

Just slow down and take your time 2boys. Read stuff, go away and think, come back and post your thoughts. Don't read too much at once or you'll be overwhelmed.

I've been following this shit since 2012 and I can no longer keep up. It must be extremely difficult for anyone new to this debate to start engaging with it now, when things are changing so rapidly and nobody's quite sure in which direction things are moving.

Radical doesn't mean extreme it means dealing with the root of the problem e.g. reminding people as often as necessary that the problem is male violence. We need words to do that and words that are not emptied of meaning. Female, male, woman, man, lesbian, sex etc.

You don't need an O level. We all know what a woman is. We all came out of one.

and then crappily explain myself and pss off others.* You aren't pissing anyone off... just confusing a couple for a moment or two

I'm another who was totally clueless, maybe even something of a handmaiden a couple of years ago. After a few false starts, some embarrasing moment and consequent name changes, I think I have finally worked out how I feel about trans issues, even the cognitive dissonance of having friends and acquaintances and using their preferred pronouns, whilst simultaneously thinking that no human can change sex.

You get there. And it is doubtful that anyone elses understanding, thoughts or feelings will be precisely the same as yours, but they won't be any more right or wrong, either!

SCRF- Scruff. I’ll take that.

Ooh crikey. Some misunderstandings while I've been gone. Okay, I'll try and address the main questions - I only skimmed the thread so please do say if I've missed something.

Firstly I am incredibly sorry that my comment was misinterpreted to suggest I thought homosexuality was "silly". Of course I don't think that and I am gutted that my poor wording came across that way. I apologise unreservedly. The thing is, everyone in my life - including the gay people - are trans-inclusive and their attraction (or not) to someone is not based on their genitals. Which is why it seemed "silly" to me that someone would rule out a romantic relationship based purely on someone's genitals. Clearly I was wrong and there are lots of people who would do that. That's a misunderstanding on my part and I'm really sorry. I may not understand it but I do respect it. I will never ever support any suggestion that anyone should have a sexual relationship with another person no matter what their reason is for declining and I would be happy to disagree with TRAs on that matter if required (if I'm honest, it's not something that's ever come up amongst my trans friends because they all have a healthy respect for boundaries and most are in long term relationships already). I'm genuinely incredibly sorry that I misspoke in this way and I have learnt something from this thread. It won't happen again.

Regarding why I believe transwomen are women - well, I don't believe gender is biological, first of all. On a personal level, I've had lots of issues with my fertility and many of the things people say makes a woman haven't always applied to me. But I still feel like a woman. I trust my trans friends when they explain to me how they feel. I believe the scientific research behind gender dysphoria. Transgenderism has existed throughout history. None of these explanations will be sufficient for anyone who doesn't agree, I know, but there we are.

Regarding Pips Bunce - he doesn't define himself as a woman so nor do I. Karen White is a woman. A criminally mentally ill woman who should never been allowed access to women prisoners but a woman nonetheless. Part of accepting that trans women are women is accepting that they can do awful things just like the rest of us. Particularly when they've grown up being socialised as a man and everything that comes with that. But not all women are the same, and that's true of trans women too.

I'd just like to add that I didn't "flounce" yesterday - I continued to discuss civilly and respectfully (barring the error I apologised for above) and then I had to leave because honestly, being the only person on a thread with a particular viewpoint is extremely tiring and while I continued to engage far longer than usual because the discussion was respectful and interesting, that doesn't mean I didn't find it distressing. I try not to be all "my trans friends" etc because I don't think it's really relevant most of the time but when you're talking about denying rights to people I love and know to be vulnerable, it is hard.

I'm away from my computer today so will find it hard to reply thoroughly. So hopefully I've answered the questions that were asked. I mostly came back to apologise for misspeaking and to thank those who pointed it out.

Karen White is a woman.

Can you explain what it is that makes you believe this?

What is your reasoning?

Is it because he states this? Or something else?

I’m sorry, I know this thread is meant to be polite, but the logical progression that certain women do bad things because they were brought up socialised as men is just...well I won’t say as I will keep it civil.

Could you explain further?

Karen White is a woman.

Are you sure, @peachgreen?

Can we not, please? @peachgreen has explained the criteria by which she defines “woman”. We can agree or disagree, but I was hoping to keep this thread to looking for pragmatic solutions. I don’t think getting people to change their minds over what a woman is will happen- so we have to find ways to live together is crucial.