to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

The thing is, everyone in my life - including the gay people - are trans-inclusive and their attraction (or not) to someone is not based on their genitals.

Could you explain this, peach? Everyone in your life is attracted to both xx and xy people? How do you define gay people then? Presumably not in line with equality law?

Which is why it seemed "silly" to me that someone would rule out a romantic relationship based purely on someone's genitals.

I'm not sure how you can reach adulthood without understanding sexual orientation. Or not realise it's a protected characteristic.

Look, I'm not interested in defending the actions of a criminal. I couldn't care less if you misgender her, post pictures of her or talk about how awful she is. I quite agree. But I personally use a person's chosen pronouns and respect their gender identity. That doesn't mean I think she deserves special treatment or shouldn't be punished for everything she's done. But she does not represent the majority of trans women and honestly, I think it's disingenuous that she is continually referred to as a straw man (pun not intended) on threads about trans women. It's like arguing that Myra Hindley represents all natal women.

@datun Again, I don't believe gender and biological sex are the same thing. The vast majority of people I know are attracted to a particular gender (unless they're bi). When I met my husband I was attracted to him. He presented as a man. I didn't know if he had a penis or not and it wouldn't have changed my attraction to him if he hadn't. It might have changed how I pursued the relationship (probably not) but my attraction to him was not based on him having a penis.

peach, I don't think people are suggesting karen white represents transwomen.

They're trying to understand how solutions can be reached for someone Karen White if Karen is viewed as a woman.

It's like arguing that Myra Hindley represents all natal women.

It really isn't.

I am just interested in your thought process but it does seem as if you just accept whatever someone tells you as fact.

Which is of course your choice to make.

Thank you @Bertrand.

but my attraction to him was not based on him having a penis.

But do you realise that most people do have a sexual orientation?

@Datun Karen White is a criminal who has committed sexual crimes. She should therefore never have had access to vulnerable women prisoners.

@Datun Yes. But for me that is based on gender presentation, not genitals.

@sackrifice Can you explain to me why my Hindley comparison isn't accurate?

And of course I don't believe everything everyone tells me. But I do respect a person's right to define their own gender identity.

Sorry to be bossy...

Yes. But for me that is based on gender presentation, not genitals.

Got it.

So how would you define homophobia?

Thanks for coming back peach. I’m sorry you find it tiring. Thanks for continuing to explain your thinking.

Part of accepting that trans women are women is accepting that they can do awful things just like the rest of us.

Is the Y chromosome relevant here do you think? If the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crime is linked to this biology, why do women with a Y and a penis in their biology behave in this way and at such a massively increased rate?

but when you're talking about denying rights to people I love and know to be vulnerable, it is hard

What rights do they not have? What rights are being denied and by whom?

Can you explain to me why my Hindley comparison isn't accurate?

We are not changing the law to allow ex child murderers to run primary schools because they say they want to.

No male should be in a female space, especially not in a locked space, with women because men are a threat as a class to women and girls and not applying the same risk assessments to men on their say so, is putting women at risk. Just not to upset him.

@datun I don't understand what a definition of homophobia has to do with anything?

@humberella I've already answered the question about rights. I think transwomen being raised and socialised as men definitely has an impact and can lead to violence. That problem needs to be solved at a societal level by dismantling the patriarchy. In the meantine unfortunately transwomen will continue to be impacted by their upbringing in an environment of toxic masculinity. But that doesn't stop them from being women.

And again Bertand ???

Pragmatically @peachgreen how do you suggest we filter out the bad transwomen, those who do present an increased threat to women?

I would like you to start from the position that crime stats show that transwomen have the same pattern and incidence of violent behaviour as men, not as women. If you want to know this for a fact the Office of National Statistics has quite a clear set of charts.

@sackrifice But by that logic you ARE using Karen White to represent all transwomen. She is a risk to women. Not all transwomen are. Myra Hindley was a risk to children. Not all women are.

Humber I think peachgreen stated upthread that transwomen are not being given the same rights as other women. They are women and so are being denied womne's rights.

But that doesn't stop them from being women

It also doesn't stop them [as a class] from demonstrating the same male pattern violence. If it did things would perhaps be very different.

Women in prison are generally a pretty vulnerable group. Many are in there because they were in a vulnerable position in society. Do you have any empathy with these women locked up with a rapist and the fear they must have felt when he walked into the room?

@curiousaboutsamphire I've addressed this earlier in the thread. I'm willing to accept a slight increase in the risk to natal women in order to protect transwomen because I believe transwomen as a group are vulnerable and the increased risk to women (given transwomen have been using women's spaces for ten years already) is minimal.

Not all transwomen are

Not all men are but we don't know which ones will assault, rape or kill us so we have sex segregated spaces when vulnerable. That's the point of sex segregation.

Men do not lose this potential just because they say words. That is not how it works.

@sackrifice I have said repeatedly that Karen White should never have had access to women prisoners. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can express that.

No @peachgreen

She's just pointig out that sex segregation was introduced because the class of human that is male is more prone to violence, often upon the class of human that is female.

KW is often used as an example, just as Hindley is. Not as a proof of ALL.

A criminally mentally ill woman who should never been allowed access to women prisoners but a woman nonetheless. Part of accepting that trans women are women is accepting that they can do awful things just like the rest of us. Particularly when they've grown up being socialised as a man and everything that comes with that. But not all women are the same, and that's true of trans women too.

This might possibly be one of the most insane examples of doublethink I've seen in a long while.

Sorry OP, I know you want us to be nice and all that but I can no more stomach this than I can flat earth stuff.

I have said repeatedly that Karen White should never have had access to women prisoners. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can express that

KW should not have had access because he is a man end of.

I'm willing to accept a slight increase in the risk to natal women in order to protect transwomen

You are willing for women to take the hit for men because they say so?

Sorry OP, I know you want us to be nice and all that but I can no more stomach this than I can flat earth stuff.

Me neither - this is sick.