to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

I am off, this thread is suddenly going to type. Both sides shouting insults at each other.

I truly hope for vulnerable women and all of us, some one either through the likes of mumsnet or the the women group of MP's can get together moderate transgender people and women's rights groups, behind doors and work away forward. But it will never happen because either the TRA will shout foul or the GC feminists will. Bye

I am off, this thread is suddenly going to type. Both sides shouting insults at each other

Huh?

So on trans issues it's the TRA's and so called radical feminists

What do you mean 'so called'? Oh, this is what you mean by insults. Right.

Change will only come when it is perceived that there is a need for that change. It is usual for the people who want that change to campaign for it, not sit back and whinge that others aren't campaigning on their behalf. When transgender people start campaigning for their third space, others might join and help them, but until they make a start, nothing is going to happen.

This.

“I am off, this thread is suddenly going to type. Both sides shouting insults at each other.”
Sorry?

Transpeople don't want a third space. They are never going to campaign for it.

Well the ones who say TWAW don't.

Loosely, it's the difference between homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles (AGP).

Homosexual transsexuals are not militant about where they piss, change or go to prison. Because they are trying to avoid confrontation.

AGP are militant about it, because they relish the confrontation that will result in validation. They have a huge motivation to be regarded as women, in every way possible. Particularly when women are vulnerable, because it's even more validating.

The reason why these situations get heated (although it's brilliant that this thread has not become particularly heated) is because very many women understand the difference - five minutes online is about all it takes.

I personally have no idea where Peachgreen is coming from. She seems to completely believe that transwomen are, in fact, women. Not as a kindness, or because she knows somebody who is trans. Just a blind belief.

And, like all beliefs, she cannot explain it or justify it.

Thank you sack and bertrand

I have been mean but i tend to apologise about 30 seconds later!

Oh 2 that's a shame. Sorry if it's not for you but I really don't think this thread has gone the way of insults.

“I personally have no idea where Peachgreen is coming from. She seems to completely believe that transwomen are, in fact, women.“

I really wanted her to stay long enough to say what brought her to that belief. When did she first hear it- how it was explained to her. How she thought “Oh yes, that makes perfect sense”

I think trans men, especially non passing trans men probably need different spaces if they don't want to use the women's.

It's unrealistic to say that all male transpeople are unsafe in male facilities, but non passing female trans are safe.

But, I agree the drive needs to come from the people needed them.

It's all very odd that when the discussion is really rather polite, accusations of perceived meanness and insults is what upsets people.

I really wanted her to stay long enough to say what brought her to that belief. When did she first hear it- how it was explained to her. How she thought “Oh yes, that makes perfect sense”

I wonder if it's something to do with an over active imagination?

Where people think, what if I woke up tomorrow in a man's body? I would still feel like me, but in a male body.

That's not a difficult thing to imagine.

The fact that it's impossible doesn't seem to give pause for thought.

It's as though a fantasy carries more weight than a mental condition/whatever you'd like to call it, called gender dysphoria.

I also think these people haven't necessarily encountered a lot of AGP individuals, or spoken frankly with HSTS individuals.

Once you see it for either the rejection of restrictive gender stereotypes, or a fetish, it's impossible to unsee it.

I am off, this thread is suddenly going to type. Both sides shouting insults at each other That’s both funny and disingenuous at the same time. You’d better stay off the feminist boards or you’ll faint away with horror. 🤣

This has been a really good discussion and although I STRONGLY disagree with most of what Peach has said, it’s been lovely being able to have a civilised discussion without accusations of bigotry on either sides. I do hope Peach will explain their logic behind WHY they think men who identify as trans (MWIAW)are women. I always find that insistence that MWIAW implies that the actual trans bit is something to hide, as if it’s a shameful secret.

I don't think it's reasonable to insist that trans women are made to use the men's facilities.

Why not? I mentioned 3 examples of 'transwomen' in an earlier post. They all have penises (as do 95% of 'transwomen'). Why do you think it's unreasonable to make them use the men's facilities?

I can understand twaw on a personal level. If a friend wanted to change their name, and pronoun's, does it matter? They wouldn't really be treated any differently because there's already trust in the relationship.

It's when that is forced into everyone else. When sex segregation matters, it can't be ignored because it makes male people feel uncomfortable, or invalidated or excluded.

She seems to completely believe that transwomen are, in fact, women. Not as a kindness, or because she knows somebody who is trans. Just a blind belief.

But when faced with Philip Bunce (won a women's award), she said she didn't believe he was a woman. She doesn't believe Karen White is a woman, because of the crimes that White committed. And she declined to comment on Alex Drummond.

I don't think she believes TWAW at all.

She doesn't believe Karen White is a woman, because of the crimes that White committed

She called KW she didn't she?

I think that if any people were entitled to flounce on this thread it would be the gay women whose sexuality has been described as a bit silly. As they have managed to remain civil I think other people should also be able to manage it.
The thing that both infuriates me and saddens me is that if I am honest I don't think those who say TWAW believe it either. So this whole debate is happening because people are trying to enforce a belief that they don't actually believe. You can see it in the hedging around the sport issue etc.

All three support women's rights to safe spaces and male free areas. In Lincoln university student union areas they have male, female , disabled and non binary toilets, if no room for all 4, its male, female disable/non binary ( but it's a single room toilet, so only one person can use it) I think some how we have to start listening to the middle and each other much more.

Well that ^^ is what we have been advocating for on this thread so I guess we are the 'middle'.

OldCrone

Because everyone is entitled to privacy. Why does it affect you if trans women (or trans men) are provided with separate spaces? Surely, your only reason to complain would be if trans women were coming in to your space, which isn't what I'm suggesting so what is your objection to trans women not having to go into the men's?

The reasons why these conversations get so heated is because women are being hugely disadvantaged on the basis of an unverifiable, patiently not true, belief. It is unacceptable to anyone who doesn't hold that belief.

I can, quite easily, remain perfectly calm and patient, whilst discussing it.

What I can't do, is make people remain and discuss it.

So although there are people who want a nice, patient, calm conversation. You never actually get there.

what is your objection to trans women not having to go into the men's

Like virtually everyone else on this thread (you included), I think a third space is the best solution. If 'not going into the men's' means going into the women's, then I am against that, because penises don't belong in women's spaces, and people who possess them are more appropriately accommodated with the other people who possess penises.

people who possess them are more appropriately accommodated with the other people who possess penises

and with the specially designed urinals that are specially installed for the penises to pee into.

The problem about 3rd spaces as I see it, is that many trans women do not want them. I don’t know about trans men- we very rarely hear their point of view.

The problem about 3rd spaces as I see it, is that many trans women do not want them.

No, they want to colonise. And this is why 3rd spaces aren't being campaigned for, and why 'transwomen' wouldn't use them even if they existed.

1) How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?

I have a problem with this question as I think it comes way too late.

If we accept that there is much gendered violence from males against women; and
we accept TW are males; and
we accept that many same sex spaces are to create safety and privacy for females from males;
we must therefore accept that any increase of male presence in female space is a bad bad thing for women and girls. and is likely to increase risk of harm to them.

This does not mean we think TW are sexual predators, but TW are men, and men can be sexual predators against women and children. We cannot tell the difference by looking at them.

We also know sexual predators will go to great lengths to access women and children.

Therefore it is ludicrous to open female spaces to men, and to tell women they cannot question men being in female spaces. TRA behaviour also tells us women are likely to face violence from some people for even daring to question them. It's a victim blaming/rape scenario all over again - "yes I hit her but she said I was a man" "GASP" "yes the TERF deserves it".

So while keeping female only spaces for victims of sexual violence is imperative, it cannot be at the expense of allowing men into female spaces.

Whilst I understand you are trying to find a "reasonable compromise", & protecting victims of male violence from contact with men is essential, you have drawn the line too far forward. The danger is if we allow TW/men into these spaces, knowing what we know, then there will be more women and children subject to harm, and the compromise you propose would be part of the reason for the increase.

I'm not prepared to sell womens spaces out like that and I don't think any of us should.

I've been GC for a few years now - what I am seeing is TRA's demanding more and more and more. Having been though an abusive relationship myself, I don't see how anything can be achieved by capitulating at all. TRA's will NOT compromise. The more I read and learn about what is happening, the more I think we must be steadfast and strong to combat this.