to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Sorry cross posted with Bertrand Russell.
Ignore me.
I am off

But totally expect the likes of BR and Curious and you to return and prove me to be a fool or worse

Oh my god dont say that i feel awful!!!

As tellme said this quite a restrained thread so stay

I admire what you tried to do here Bertrand but I don't feel there can ever be a solution between these points of view. When somebody says that they think deciding who to have sex with based on their genitals is rather silly, I just don't know where to start. The homophobia that seems to always be under the surface is so problematic for me.

2Boys- you are right- the 98% applies to sexual crimes, not violent crimes- that is something around 89%. Still a lot, no?

Bertrand
God aye, scary. We have 2, was going to say boys, see name. But ones 19. Both are/where police cadets, rugby league players. Violence in males worries us as parents.

I am interested at the number of people who agree that separating gender and sex is key.

I just watched Last Week Tonight's episode on the ERA in the US. The wording of the ERA is "Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

Oliver was clearly advocating equal rights for women but through the piece he switched constantly between talking about sexual equality and gender equality.

To me, in order to accommodate the needs of people who are trans whilst retaining protections for women, we really have to be clear that they are two different things. Does the ERA do anything legally for transwomen? Any legal knowledge from the US here?

tellme don't ever let anyone out you off posting.

Yes, I boasted about my education, but it was specifically aimed at one comment. I wanted to forestall another circular argument.

In most other respects I can be as clueless and naive as anyone.

Just chime up as and when. That's how you got started here.

I

That's how I got started here!!!!

peachgreen I really do appreciate your posts and hope you come back. I genuinely want to know why and how ppl with your beliefs come to them etc and it's very rare to have a civil discussion like this. There are still areas where I'm kind of wondering if I'm missing something so to hear 'the other side' is helpful (again, if it's in good faith).

Sure there was more I had to ask but ofc my mind has gone blank!

Oh yes, if eg there were equal numbers of male and female MPs, board members of a company, etc would you consider that equality had been reached? Would that change if every woman there was a transwoman of any description?

Thanks Curious and to be clear I didn't mean it in a "them clever know-it-all-types" at all. More that posters who are so well informed have helped me educate myself. If it wasn't for this place I'd still be in a clueless bubble and not have the little bit but it's growing confidence to talk about this is in real life.

I feel like I should crack open the or similar

You asked me where was the shouting down - I paraphrased what has been said to me and left out the name calling and the sheer nastiness. It isn't so much what is said but how it is said

A third space would be agreeing with you - is the point.

But totally expect the likes of BR and Curious and you to return and prove me to be a fool or worse

I've known Rufus for years on here, though many of my user names and Rufus has never, ever been mean to anyone. Or made them look a fool.

I'm slightly startled by the idea that my homosexuality - being exclusively attracted to one biological sex class - is a 'bit silly'. To me that's a bit homophobic, to put it mildly. Genuine question: (not to Peach, just anyone willing to explain their alternative viewpoint) Why is it ok to ask me to get over my homosexuality as something a bit silly and prejudiced? Do you also support asking trans people to get over their transgenderism?

Those who believe women should put up with 'being made uncomfortable' by including TW in women's toilets, in order to provide for all women equally - what are you going to do with women who for reason of their faith, culture, race or disability, can no longer use women's toilets? Are you ok with those women losing access to any public toilets in order to include TW?

The only human rights based approach to this is a third space. This meets the needs of TW to be able to have privacy, dignity and a space apart from men, while at the same time not removing privacy, dignity and a space apart from males from women.

A third space would be agreeing with you - is the point.

You would think so but many posters seem to think that if a third space is needed then it is for someone else to organise, and those debates tend to get very heated.

Personally, I think if third spaces are required then they need to be mandated and all premises required to have them. It shouldn't be voluntary or up to individuals to have to fight for them.

“I've known Rufus for years on here, though many of my user names and Rufus has never, ever been mean to anyone. Or made them look a fool.”

I don’t think I have, either....

DecomposingComposers- I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.....

Personally, I think if third spaces are required then they need to be mandated and all premises required to have them.

This would not be difficult to do. The blueprints are there from the original Disability Discrimination Act when accessible disabled toilets became a requirement. The national requirement was made based on budget/size of provision/number of people being served, with a requirement for reasonability; grants were made available from the LA to help, accountability and enforcement took place through LA teams. This could easily be achieved within a couple of years, probably much faster than it was for disabled people, since there are very well monied and politically connected groups behind this. Far more advantaged than the disabled lobby ever were.

Personally, I think if third spaces are required then they need to be mandated and all premises required to have them. It shouldn't be voluntary or up to individuals to have to fight for them.

We already have facilities available for everyone, according to their sex. If transgender people find this unacceptable, they need to start campaigning for a third space.

Change will only come when it is perceived that there is a need for that change. It is usual for the people who want that change to campaign for it, not sit back and whinge that others aren't campaigning on their behalf. When transgender people start campaigning for their third space, others might join and help them, but until they make a start, nothing is going to happen.

BertrandRussell

Ok. Happens all the time, whenever someone take about the treatment that they've even received or witnessed on some of these threads - depends which side of the argument you are on as to whether you see it or not.

You might not have seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

No- I mean I don’t understand what you’re saying about 3rd spaces.

Here is my "idiot's thoughts on the subject"
I think Birdsdestiny maybe right.
In my simple mind this topic is a bit like leaving the EU, bare with me, in that you have two sides who will at the "extremes" will never meet eye to eye.
So on trans issues it's the TRA's and so called radical feminists. on the EU you the Farage of the world against Ms Miller.
On both in the rest of the UK, you have the rest who are either uneducated on the subject, confused, not bother, couldn't care less.
Sadly in both cases the loudest and worse set the tone
EU MR Farage
Trans The TRA
But in the middle is where the future is and it is lost. I have met a fairly famous trans gender female, through Dses cadet work. She despairs at the argument over non gender toilets/free spaces. she wants what little money there is too help transgender people to access help and support.
The other 2 I have helped through my union duties, didn't want special treatment or spaces, they just wanted to be what they believe was themselves. Both work in male dominated industries and where so scared they would be bullied/laughed at. Neither where.
All three support women's rights to safe spaces and male free areas. In Lincoln university student union areas they have male, female , disabled and non binary toilets, if no room for all 4, its male, female disable/non binary ( but it's a single room toilet, so only one person can use it)
I think some how we have to start listening to the middle and each other much more.
But I fear after 2016, that's impossible, when ever I tried to find common ground on leaving the Eu threads, I got shout down by both sides, so I don't bother any more, this subject seems similar.
Sorry like I said earlier, too thick to add anything to the discussion.

We already have facilities available for everyone, according to their sex.

I don't think it's reasonable to insist that trans women are made to use the men's facilities. I also don't think it's reasonable that trans men use the women's facilities. Despite what people have said on here it will put some women off if they come across someone who physically looks like a man in the changing room.

So, no, I don't agree that simply having male and female spaces is adequate now.

BertrandRussell

What don't you understand?

@peachgreen you keep saying 'transwomen are women and therefore should have access to women's spaces and provisions but can you accept that transwomen are still male?
Spaces, especially prisons, refuges, rape crisis centres etc where women are particularly vulnerable are sex segregated for this very reason. You may truly think that TWAW and try are just born in the wrong body but those bodies are still male and women deserve female only spaces.
A third space is a perfectly reasonable and fair suggestion.

Ok. Happens all the time, whenever someone take about the treatment that they've even received or witnessed on some of these threads - depends which side of the argument you are on as to whether you see it or not.

You said you were shouted down and then went to describe people agreeing with you. It is very confusing if you say one thing but mean another.