to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Serena Williams has said she couldn’t take a game off Andy Murray. My moderately sporty teenager could easily beat all the records held by girls of his age at his school. It doesn’t need all this close examination.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've skimmed sections of it. What strikes me is that OP's question and much of the debate is about transwomen and women and the main issue seems to be how much women need to accommodate those born with penises. The core issues and the discussion do not seem to centre on transmen and how much men should accommodate those born with penises or transmen. Personally, I think that says a lot.

Yes that was my take away from this. Men's wants must always be prioritised over women's needs at whatever cost necessary.

This has been really interesting. I would still love to know the point at which a transwoman "becomes" a woman.

I would still love to know the point at which a transwoman "becomes" a woman.

He was always a woman that's the point

I’m very grateful to @peachgreen for staying so long. If you’re reading, do you think you could let it be known that this is a fairly civil and non confrontational thread in case anyone else feels like joining it? I certainly still have more questions I would love to discuss.

In particular, i’d really like to know what leads a non trans person to the conclusion that TWAW. What thought process do you go through to get there.

The EqA protected characteristic is gender reassignment and it has only legally applied to those that went through the 2 year process and were given a gender recognition certificate. Less than 5000 people since 2004 I believe. Even with this ruling exemptions were allowed for which now are not being applied - illegally so.

This is not correct.

The Equality Act says:

A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

Note that the process doesn't need to be medical - it's deliberately left vague, and the person only needs to be 'proposing to undergo ...' 'I'm trans' / 'I identify as a woman' / 'Call me Ma'am' - any of these statements from a self-ID tw would be enough for them to have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. They would then be protected from discrimination so they couldn't for example be sacked or evicted because they were trans.

This doesn't mean they must legally be treated the same as a woman (or as a man for tm). There is case law which establishes that in a discrimination case the comparator is someone of the same sex who does not have the PC of gender reassignment (so for a self-ID tw the comparator would be a man). Only for tw with a GRC, who are therefore legally female, would the comparator be a woman and there are numerous exceptions in both the EA and GRA because tw are not actually women (and because tm must not be allowed to inherit hereditary peerages meant for proper men but that's another thread).

My bad. Thanks for clarifying Pencils

I'm saying there are questions and I would welcome more research. That's so disingenuous! EVERY MALE SPORT is higher, faster, stronger than every female version of that sport. The performance gap is closing but with there being a very definite 10 - 20% performance benefit to men simply because they are male - any age, any fitness level, any test except flexibility.

That has decades of research behind it. How mch more do you want?

Or do you want to know if testorsterone itself is key - we also know that because of the research CAS undertook in the wake of Caster Semenya's initial sex tests. That's 10+ years of specific, gold standard research.

What you mean is you are waiting for some incontravertable pro TWAW physiological research. That won't happen. Fo rthere to be even the slightest chance of males not having a liek for like physical advantage a boy must have been prevented from any masculinisation. And that is incredibly damaging, against the law, is immoral and is unlikely to become socially acceptablel, outside of Mermaids!

And yes... I have degrees, research and lots of lecturing experience in this area!

BertrandRussell
I have nothing to add, but you it would help if people used the correct facts for discussions.
I believe you said on page 1 the following or similar 98% of violent crimes are carried out by males
A quick internet search says the following, although all crime surveys are based on sex of the victim, between 2000 and 2017, between 11 and 18% of violent crimes where committed by a female, it may be higher as more crimes involve a male and female, but often only the males are found and charged.
If all discussion start with myths, we will never get anywhere.

He was always a woman that's the point Minor slip in terminology there, methinks

*between 11 and 18% of violent crimes where committed by a female, There was a thread a while ago looking ta how much of that was transwomen... I'll have a look, unless someone has it at their fingertips.

Apparently some of those crimes defintiely are transwomen but nobody has the stats, as even without the law being changed transwomen's crimes are being recorded as female crimes in some, not all, places.

“If all discussion start with myths, we will never get anywhere.”

Happy to change it to “the overwhelming majority of violent crimes are committed by men” Does that suit you? I think the 98% applies to sexual crimes. My mistake.

peachgreen if you do come back, could you have a think about why certain women conform to male pattern criminality, but only those who have a Y-chromosome?

And maybe have a think about why we segregate on that basis?

may be higher as more crimes involve a male and female, but often only the males are found and charged

How on earth you can type this and then complain about myths i dont know

I sorry I am not arguing your wrong about the fact a transgender women adds to female crime stats, I just saying plucking 98% is wrong. As it would look to any one that 98% of violent crimes are male, so if 18% where report as female in say 2015, that 16% where by transgender, which is either totally false or can't be proved.
If my eldest son wrote that in his year 1 criminology degree exams or Ds2 in his GCSE ones they would be heavily criticised, rightly.

So seeing this was meant to be a thread to find comment ground, surely, you would be better to stick to facts?
I know these things get heated. Which amazing this one hasn't.
I am going to back away, I have no answers and know transgender females and GC Feminists and don't want to get involved, I haven't the brains or education to explain my thoughts on here. So I will only upset you all, and I have no interest in that, so good luck, it a very interest thread and one really worth reading, so thank you all.

To prove my point,
Should say thread to find common ground
Apologises and runs away

haven't the brains or education to explain my thoughts on here

Oh dont say that

Dont put yourself down

Though i do understand...half the time I can’t type a coherent sentence !!!

I just saying plucking 98% is wrong.

It wasn't plucked out of thin air, it is the percentage of sexual crimes committed by men. 98% men, 2% women.

@peachgreen Does your belief that "Everyone is what they say they are" extend to other areas?

So if a 3-year-old girl says she is a woman, is she a woman?

If I say that I feel oh so feline so I'm a cat, I've always been a cat inside, am I a cat?

If not, why not?

sorry Refus
I did type it, but I just wrote exactly the answer I found on the Freedom of Information answer. Like I said I don't have the education,
I just thought 98% seemed high that's all. seeing there have been sadly 3 local women sentenced for murder lately.

As a conflicted, 50 old liberal, non brexit supporter, who is so sick of false news and twisting of facts, I just like now to research things myself. I left school with next to no O levels, so I use these threads to slowly educate myself.
I got ripped apart on brexit threads, so just lurk now and try and educate myself. So sometimes I surprise myself.

But totally expect the likes of BR and Curious and you to return and prove me to be a fool or worse. So like I say it's better for my self confidence to run and hide. Great discussion though

Sorry Zutt
But I just re checked and Bertrand says 98% of violent crimes.
I agree sexually crimes and even worse for child abuse crimes where I guess its 99.8%.
But the statement was violent crime.
Which is slightly less male dominant.
I admit we should still be doing more to tackle it all.
Sorry I have de railed long enough

2boys there are lots of posters on here and FWR who are not only better educated and informed than me but way more articulate so I post only occasionally as generally someone else will say what I'm thinking only better. When I do post I also have an incredible talent for either killing threads totes or at least creating a tumble weed effect as posters are probably wondering what the Jeff my comment has to do with anything then steering clear till I've wandered off

Do stay and continue to contribute though. Whilst this thread is remaining pretty quiet it's a topic so many posters feel very passionately about and that often comes across in posts. I find the straight talking very refreshing from the Rw!

sackrifice

Sorry, been at hospital all day.

You asked me where was the shouting down - I paraphrased what has been said to me and left out the name calling and the sheer nastiness. It isn't so much what is said but how it is said.