to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

Apologies if I missed anything.

I disagree. I believe transwomen should be allowed in all these places UNLESS they have been convicted of sexual assault against women.

Convicted?

Less than 1% of rapes result in any action, and that's the ones that we know of.

Nah - I'll stick to keeping all men out thanks. I don't want to throw unknown numbers of women or girls under the bus just not to be unkind to some men who say or think they are women.

Apologies if I missed anything

What you have missed entirely by the looks of it is that males as a class are a threat to females as a class. Hence sex segregated spaces in the first place.

I don't want to throw unknown numbers of women or girls under the bus just not to be unkind to some men who say or think they are women.

I absolutely understand your point. But I don't believe granting transwomen access to women's spaces increases the risk to women significantly (because the very small number who want to commit crime will do so regardless), and similarly I don't want to throw unknown numbers of transwomen under the bus just because of that small increased risk. I totally get why you feel otherwise.

Thank you tellme

@peachgreen- just so we can be clear. You think that the rights of transwomen override the rights of women? That transwomen have no responsibility to try to mitigate the anxiety or disadvantage their presence might cause.

Oh, and that it’s OK for Philip Bunce, who as you rightly say uses male pronouns, to accept a “women in business” award.

You think that the rights of transwomen override the rights of women? That transwomen have no responsibility to try to mitigate the anxiety or disadvantage their presence might cause.

No, I don't think it's as simple as that. I believe women have the right to reject any healthcare provider for any reason, for example, and in that instance, a natal woman patients's rights would oughtweigh the rights of a transwoman healthcare provider. I do believe a transwoman's right to access female toilets overrides a woman's right to not feel uncomfortable.

Oh, and that it’s OK for Philip Bunce, who as you rightly say uses male pronouns, to accept a “women in business” award.
No, I don't. I would be happy for a transwoman who lives as a woman full time to receive said award. But not a genderfluid individual who presents as a man at least part of the time.

I think we're talking semantics here but I believe transwomen do have the right to access those spaces under the Equality Act,

Actually men who identify as trans can be refused entry to female only spaces using sex protection provisions under the Equality Act, so it’s not that straightforward.

I believe transwomen should be allowed in all these places UNLESS they have been convicted of sexual assault against women.

Karen White wasn’t initially jailed for sex crimes against women, but went in to sexually assault women in the female jail. You are, in effect, saying that women should be put at risk in order to validate the feelings and rights of men who identify as women. In other words, don’t give women rights to protection that you want for men who identify as trans. You want men who identify as trans to be permitted into female spaces, because they don’t feel safe from other men, but won’t give women the same rights.

You’re not actually seeking a middle ground, are you? Everything you say, goes back to validating the feelings of males over females.

I believe it benefits women because it benefits transwomen

Even if you somehow believe that male people can be 'women', it is not wildly beneficial to women to disadvantage the 99.9% of women who are female for the sake of the 0.1% outlier who is male.

I think we're talking semantics here but I believe transwomen do have the right to access those spaces under the Equality Act, and have done so for a decade.

The EqA protected characteristic is gender reassignment and it has only legally applied to those that went through the 2 year process and were given a gender recognition certificate. Less than 5000 people since 2004 I believe. Even with this ruling exemptions were allowed for which now are not being applied - illegally so.

This is a long way from the current position being adopted everywhere whereby we just accept anyone who says they feel like a woman/man. This is basically self ID without self ID actually being a legal thing.

@peachgreen - this comment confuses me

"Should a random, unannounced member of the public with a willy ever be in the ladies toilets while they are in use, a women's refuge, women only swimming session, basically any space meant for women and/or children only as a surprise for the occupants of that space? Or locked in a prison with them?
I disagree. I believe transwomen should be allowed in all these places UNLESS they have been convicted of sexual assault against women."

So you are happy to believe TWAW, until they do something you disagree with. And then then TWA not actually W after all. But then you say it isn't your place to judge? Surely if you believe TWAW then that holds true no matter their actions? And in that case, you feel they would absolutely belong in a female prison.

I would like to see more research done on the benefits transwomen have and how they can be mitigated.

The benefits they have in sport is that they are grown men and all the physical advantage we know that incurs.

Actually men who identify as trans can be refused entry to female only spaces using sex protection provisions under the Equality Act, so it’s not that straightforward.
Yes and I absolutely support the continued use of that provision where necessary, for example shelters for female victims of rape. I trust providers to be able to make those arrangements as they have been doing for the past decade.

Karen White wasn’t initially jailed for sex crimes against women, but went in to sexually assault women in the female jail.

Karen White was charged back in the early 90s for indecent exposure and sexually assaulting children. She had also been accused of rape prior to imprisonment. Given her history of offending, she should never have had access to other women prisoners.

You are, in effect, saying that women should be put at risk in order to validate the feelings and rights of men who identify as women. In other words, don’t give women rights to protection that you want for men who identify as trans. You want men who identify as trans to be permitted into female spaces, because they don’t feel safe from other men, but won’t give women the same rights.
No. I believe transwomen are women. So I want all women to be given access to women's spaces.

You’re not actually seeking a middle ground, are you? Everything you say, goes back to validating the feelings of males over females.
I don't think that's true. My starting position in this discussion is that I do not believe there is a solution.

So you are happy to believe TWAW, until they do something you disagree with. And then then TWA not actually W after all. But then you say it isn't your place to judge? Surely if you believe TWAW then that holds true no matter their actions? And in that case, you feel they would absolutely belong in a female prison.

No. I believe anyone who has sexually assaulted a woman, male or female, should not have access to other women prisoners. It's not about them doing something I don't disagree with.

Even if you somehow believe that male people can be 'women', it is not wildly beneficial to women to disadvantage the 99.9% of women who are female for the sake of the 0.1% outlier who is male.

I don't believe allowing transwomen access to women's spaces does disadvantage 99.9% of women. Not even close.

The benefits they have in sport is that they are grown men and all the physical advantage we know that incurs.

And how far is that advantage mitigated by hormone treatments? Does the advantage apply in every sport? Is that advantage statistically different to the advantage, say, a naturally tall woman might enjoy? I'm not looking for answers here - I'm saying there are questions and I would welcome more research.

I do believe a transwoman's right to access female toilets overrides a woman's right to not feel uncomfortable.

It's not about comfort, it is about safety.

@peachgreen- i’m sorry to quiz you. But do you feel like saying what led you to believe TWAW? What was the thought process?

Given her history of offending, she should never have had access to other women prisoners.

No. I believe transwomen are women. So I want all women to be given access to women's spaces.

So Karen White and other men with a history of sexual assault, who identify as trans, should be given access to female toilets, changing rooms, women’s groups, wards, etc?

I really am bowing out now, sorry. I hope that you can understand how exhausting it is to be the only person on a thread discussing from a particular viewpoint when there's dozens holding the opposing view, and that I really have stuck it out for a good while! Given my initial position is that I don't believe there's a compromise to be had between GC feminists and trans-inclusive feminists, I'm very aware that this discussion is mostly pointless, and there's only so much energy I can commit to it. I hope I've at least explained a few things you may have had questions about and while I'm very aware I leave here having changed nobody's mind whatsoever, I'm at least glad we were able to have this discussion civily - thank you all.

Given her history of offending, she should never have had access to other women prisoners

What is it about Karen White, the rapist, that makes you think this is a woman?

Is that advantage statistically different to the advantage, say, a naturally tall woman might enjoy? a naturally tall woman will still be no match for a man who identifies as trans. He will still have all the advantages of having a male body, longer bones, bigger muscle mass, larger heart and lung capacity, etc. That doesn’t change with the decrease of testosterone levels.

I really am bowing out now, sorry

No by all means, we get this all the time. Genderists are always so busy.

Thanks for explaining how the comfort of men is so much more important than the safety of women and girls.

They don't all have hormone treatment and I'm not aware that doing so is a requirement for winning a girl's athletic scholarship for example.

As for other advantages, hormones make very little difference to existing male muscle mass compared to what women have and zero difference to larger lung function which works in their favour. Also zero difference to the skeletal structure which has a big impact especially in track sports.

You gave it a good go peachgreen and I admire your determination. I’m an atheist and have never been swayed by any religion or false science, so I don’t think we’ll ever agree.