to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

’s the lack of oxygen from all the deep breaths when you’re wh... talking

oh my actual god

And i thought your first dig was harsh

Pages behind.

Certain issues will not be resolved unless we have a working, legal, commonly understood definition of woman. There really isn't any way round that unfortunately.

The law, and all the regulations, statutory code, guidance and policies based on that law, are made out of words. We absolutely need clear definitions of words or the law will be bent to mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, to benefit their own interests. Eg:

1) How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?

Does 'women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man' include tw? If a tw says they have always been female, including their penis, are they 'a male bodied person'?

2) How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?

But if TWAW and some tw commit rape then there has actually been an increase in the number of rapes committed by women.

How do we decide these things without a working definition of 'woman'?

I'm as bored shitless of discussions around the meaning of 'woman' as anybody else but I don't see how the law can provide protection for women when a woman is anybody who says they are a woman.

I recommend Rebecca Reilly Cooper's article - Some basic questions about sex and gender for progressives which she wrote specifically to deal with situations where people are stuck in circles with 'what is a woman?'

rebeccarc.com/2018/01/14/some-basic-questions-about-sex-and-gender-for-progressives/

I've always supported a third space. But whenever I've said that on here I've been shouted down.

Interesting. Because that's what a lot of us see as a good solution. Who shouted you down? TRAs?

And i thought your first dig was harsh

I’ll stop now, sorry.

😁

I’m surprised at that. When you say third spaces, does that mean that you agree that there should also be female and male sex segregated spaces, as well as a third space that anyone is welcome to use? Or do you feel that their should be a third space, but people who identify as trans should still be permitted to use the space they wish to, even if those in the sex segregated spaces don’t view them as the same sex?

For me, personally, I would like everyone to be able to choose where they go but I totally understand that it isn't up to me (it's just, as you asked, that is my opinion). Therefore, the best way is to have a third space. So women only, men only and then a third space open to all.

There was already a third space at Hampstead ponds. Made no difference.

That emoji is so untrustworthy sucks

Re. questions 1 and 3 in OP, I agree with whoever said a few pages back (and other posts in agreement) that there should be three options with refuges, facilities and services; and it also works for sports:

Female category - women only
Male category - men only
Open category - open to all, the choice is up to the individual.

Question 4 - sexual relationships: totally up to the individual.

Therefore, the best way is to have a third space. So women only, men only and then a third space open to all

Cool

So thats bogs and changing rooms sorted...does that cover sports as well?

Probably ....and we all agree that people should love who they love and has sex with whomever they choose

So i think we’re all good

Just need a way to get this stuff in motion

It doesn’t matter what trans men look like, they are female on the basis of belonging to the sex class that produce ova.

Really? See I doubt that most people in every day life actually look much more closely than just outward appearance. So if a deeply religious woman went into a changing room and saw a muscular person with a beard getting changed that they would ask to examine their genitals or whip out a microscope and check their DNA. What they would see is a person that appeared male. I think it's quite disingenuous to think that everyone would reconsider their first impression and then ask questions in order to determine if this was a man or a trans man.

Though bertrand is right about the ponds

Therefore, the best way is to have a third space. So women only, men only and then a third space open to all.

I agree. I think it’s so important that everyone feels safe and respected, but unfortunately, due to male violence and the fact many women will view men who identify as trans as still being male, they’re never going to feel at ease sharing with them. I’m sure that the majority of trans people don’t want hassle and want others to feel comfortable so will be more that happy to have a shared space where they would feel respected and welcome.

My concern will always be that any trans person that demands entrance to female spaces, when a third space is available will be the one that would be unable to have empathy with females.

OldCrone

So would you envisage a law that says trans women must use male spaces but trans men can use male or female spaces, depending on how well they pass?

Only, if trans men can use female spaces, how can I as a woman, determine whether the male looking person in the ladies toilet is a trans man (who can be there) or a man (who can't)?

The H Ponds example is a good one. my worry is that however much we try to find a workable solution such as a third space, there will be an almighty push back from those who see it as still exclusionary.

The solution for transmen doesn't have to be a mirror image of the solution for transwomen

Absolutely. This needs to be repeated and for people to really think about it.

Hampstead Ponds is a good example and I think the onus should be on the council/government to explain why they removed sex segregation there when there was already a third facility.

They need to be accountable for this.

There was already a third space at Hampstead ponds. Made no difference.

Those are the kind of men who identify as trans, that cause great concern to females. The lack of empathy they have is unnerving.

I agree with sackrifice about point 1.

I don’t want any of my three daughters to be hurt or traumatised by a male in the future. There is no way of knowing if a male in a female space is a nice polite trans woman just trying to live their life, or a Katie Dolatowski, waiting for an opportunity to video them or sexually assault them.

Interesting. Because that's what a lot of us see as a good solution. Who shouted you down? TRAs?

Nope, regulars on FWR boards. Arguments included men aren't welcome in women's spaces, if they don't like it then they need to start fighting for a third space, arguments such as you see on the wagamamas thread - basically that sex segregated spaces must take priority, which is going to cause problems where there simply isn't the space to have male, female plus a third space. In those instances I can't see a solution other than single self contained spaces because they can be used by everyone but that's wrong apparently. In those cases you must do away with the third space.

There is no way of knowing if a male in a female space is a nice polite trans woman just trying to live their life,

Or is a trans man either.

2. record by sex first, then use other identifiers as part of crime profiling.
3. segregate sport by sex, no exceptions, including DSDs
4. support Get the L out so lesbians have their own voice and organisation, to highlight to the world how homophobic Stonewall is.

The regulars on FWR aren’t a hive mind

Im off to bed

Night all

Pages behind also, but man, I do NOT think a productive conversation can be had with anyone who calls sexual orientation 'genital preference', as some posters have.

Homophobia can't be a starting point. Some things are non-negotiable, and the fact that same sex orientation exists, and needs to be respected as an entirely valid way of living in the world, is one of those things.

Curious to go back to pg 8 now, and see if anyone coming from a pro-trans inclusion in all things side has had any compromises to suggest.

Curious if anyone was able to explain what the plan is to make competition fair for female bodied athletes made to compete with male bodied athletes, other than the sexist ones I came across (women are less naturally competitive, so transwomen feel more comfy competiting there....that's b/s. Many women are highly competitive, and why shouldnt they be?)

Or is a trans man either

Exactly. Predatory men are ruining it for everybody.

If you say to trans men that they can choose who they compete against then you will have trans women also choosing which negates the whole purpose of trying to protect women's sports.

But in the sport situation there isn't any symmetry either. If men compete in women's events, they'll win. If women compete in men's events, they'll lose.

I don't think I said transmen should choose (I didn't mean to), but that women who identify as men, but haven't taken testosterone, could compete against women. Transmen on testosterone should compete against men, because their testosterone will be higher than normal female levels.

Transwomen, regardless of testosterone levels, have skeletal and muscular advantages over women, and greater lung capacity etc., so should compete against men.

Making transmen with high testosterone compete against men doesn't mean you have to let transwomen with low testosterone compete against women - because they still have advantages over women.