to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

how can I as a woman, determine whether the male looking person in the ladies toilet is a trans man (who can be there) or a man (who can't)?

A transman who is pre-op and pre-T will be as easily recognisable as they will look no different to a non-feminine or butch woman we already recognise with a cursory glance 99.9% of the time; with the 0.1% usually confirmed via a better look, or verbally, or a combination of those sensory inputs.

There was already a third space at Hampstead ponds. Made no difference.

That's because, as I mentioned up thread, the most vocal transactivists (not all of whom are trans themselves) have no interest in solutions that don't take something away from women.

It's all well and good us having this discussion about what is fair but does anyone really think the other side is having discussions about fairness and solutions? It's pretty clear they are not.

Until there is some honesty in this debate from the trans side about the realities of biological sex and the inherent misogyny in so much of their ideology I feel we are at an impasse.

Third spaces are a nice idea theoretically but a) in the majority of cases they're not realistically going to happen and b) it means all transpeople would have to reveal their status which puts them at far greater risk of harm. Transpeople are at risk from male violence as well.

Only, if trans men can use female spaces, how can I as a woman, determine whether the male looking person in the ladies toilet is a trans man (who can be there) or a man (who can't)?

I've assumed that a transman who passes would be more comfortable using the male spaces. A transman who isn't on testosterone will be clearly female, so no problem.

Transwomen shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces because there is no way of telling the difference between a genuine, nice transwoman and a rapist who's just put on a dress in order to gain easier access to victims.

Don't look for symmetry. There isn't any.

It's not women's job to sort out everything for trans people of both sexes and for the whole rest of society.

Lots of us are mums here but we're not everybody's mum.

We don't have to work out where everyone goes to the toilet or gets changed. It's enough to say these are women's spaces and they are for us. If you are unhappy with using the facilities provided for your sex then come up with another solution and as long as it doesn't crap on women or children we will support you.

We don't have to make sure everyone in the world has access to a DV refuge or a rape crisis centre. We can say that we built these ones for women from scratch and they are for us. We will support you in creating your own and will share the knowledge we have gained.

We can say what we're happy with in various situations wrt both tw and tm and they don't need to be the same. The law is fully capable of differentiating between the two sexes.

We can say 'these are our boundaries, over to you.'

It's very easy to exploit women's socialisation and suggest that we are not allowed to ask even to keep our existing (on paper) rights unless we also work out solutions for everybody else who might be inconvenienced by this.

It's like wifework but at a societal level. I'm not prepared to do it.

It's up to trans people to campaign for their own needs. Third spaces and bespoke refuges and rape crisis services would seem obvious. It needs to come from them though. Aside from anything else, it won't be seen as legitimate if it's women asking for it on behalf of trans people.

peachgreen

If the third spaces are for anyone: women, men, transwomen, transmen, nobody has to 'reveal their status'.

Transpeople are at risk from male violence as well.

Gay men are at risk from male violence, but gay men never insisted on using women's toilets to escape from it.

OK. No suggestions for how to make things fair and safe for natal women from pro-gender people.

This conversation looks a lot like every other conversation I've ever taken part in, where one side says 'no' while the other side practices their female socialization and brainstorms endlessly to find solutions for both groups, solutions which will be rejected by the people saying 'no'.

Seems like a LOT of female labor for little purpose.

I'm gonna share what I tell my boy with GD. That his feelings are real, and distressing, and yes, he does wish he had been born a girl, and that's really difficult. As an adult, he can choose to make hormonal and surgical modifications to his body to best help him live in his male body. As a teen, he can present in as feminine a way as he wants if that is helpful to him.

However, he needs to understand that 'changing sex' is a lie, fake news being peddled to him by untrustworthy actors.

And that it is is his responsibility to understand his own male advantage (whether he wants it or not) and behave ethically towards the women he wants to identify with.

Kids and people with GD are just like kids and people without GD, in that they have rights and ALSO responsibilities. It does them no favors to treat them like fragile flowers who cannot handle the demands of living an ethical life. Talk about the bigotry of low expectations!

If my kid ends up transitioning, and if he can access gender neutral loos, is free from physical violence, and is not discriminated against in housing and employment*, that will make for a fine life. He doesn't need to trample over natal women and their very limited same sex provisions to live a happy life.

*I honestly don't understand why TRA's are working on these bread and butter issues rather than on accessing limited same sex provisions.

Transpeople are at risk from male violence as well.

So why invite them into our sex segregated spaces.

It's all well and good us having this discussion about what is fair but does anyone really think the other side is having discussions about fairness and solutions? It's pretty clear they are not.

You know when people ask what does living life as a woman look like. This is what it looks like. Trying to discuss, trying to be fair, trying to be inclusive and trying to resolve our differences.

If only the TRAs who claim to want to live life like a woman could actually take some of this on board and start talking we would make so much more progress.

Of course there are many, many transwomen that do support women in their fight to retain their current rights in law to sex segregated spaces. Unfortunately they are treated very badly by TRAs too.

I've always supported a third space. But whenever I've said that on here I've been shouted down

Nope, regulars on FWR boards. Arguments included men aren't welcome in women's spaces, if they don't like it then they need to start fighting for a third space

So by shouting down you mean agreeing totally with you?

A third space is the only answer, realistically:

Women's

Men's

and Open to whoever wishes to use.

That is not a marker of trans people. It is a facility for all people who choose, for whatever reason, to use the third option.

There's no reason third spaces can't happen except for trans people don't want them because they don't provide validation.

Disabled people have fought like hell for the facilities they need to have equal access to buildings, toilets and transport. Why can't trans people campaign for their needs in a similar way?

They wouldn't even need to campaign very hard. Institutions are bending over backwards to accommodate trans people. They could ask for the moon on a stick and have a reasonable expectation of getting it.

It's not women's job to campaign for third spaces.

Women campaigning for third spaces on behalf of trans people would not go down well.

It has to come from them.

It does them no favors to treat them like fragile flowers who cannot handle the demands of living an ethical life. Talk about the bigotry of low expectations!

That’s such a good way of looking at it. I love that last bit in particular. You sound like a supportive mother that will bring up a lovely lad/trans person, who will be a very respectful adult.

Disabled people have fought like hell for the facilities they need to have equal access to buildings, toilets and transport. Why can't trans people campaign for their needs in a similar way?

For the same reason that people with pushchairs demand access to disabled facilities and wheelchair spots on buses and able bodied people feel entitled to take the seats/parking spaces intended for those in need. Why bother fighting for something when you can walk in and talk what you want from those who you view as unable to fight back. They want others to do the shit work and they can reap the benefits, only in this case there is also the demand for validation.

*Walk in and take

Thank you S1naidSucks.

Compassion for my childwith GD can be balanced with concern for natal women. So why can't it happen in the wider world ?

That's kind of what I was hoping this convo might be. People who feel deeply compassionate towards transpeople ('allies') suggesting ways to balance that deep compassion with compassion for women. But I haven't seen it. It just makes me think that people don't have compassion for women at all, which is really sad.

So - we (collectively) have solved this question by cateis

What

For me - sex-segregated facilities and service for women are just that: for women only. I don't care how men may identify - if they are men, then they are not women. No matter what their personality.

It just makes me think that people don't have compassion for women at all, which is really sad.

They do, until that compassion affects men, then women are expected to move over. This has always been the way. You only have to look at the relationships boards to see that. You can disguise misogyny, like dying grey hair black, but the roots will always come through.

You can disguise misogyny, like dying grey hair black, but the roots will always come through.

So true :(

Sorry about my post just there. We had a thunderstorm!

Anyway: I'd put three options:

Women's facilities and sport

Men's facilities and sport

And the third option for anyone.

janeskettle But what if there is no third space? What will your child do then? Let's imagine he has fully transitioned apart from surgery - hormones, living as a woman, passing. Just waiting for surgery. Would you prefer that she had to use the men's toilets and put herself at risk?

I know of passing transwomen who use the men's. They get bemused comments, no violence so far.

I'd rather men helped other men understand that feminine males are not an affront, and to reduce the homophobia and misogyny that drives aggression and violence towards these males.

I'd rather my child chose to live somewhere that does have third option provision - my city does have it, quite widely - and use that. I'm definitely a supporter of more, rather than less, unisex provision.

The answer to any risk my child might experience is not to increase risk to women.

I mean, really, for anyone actually suffering GD, it's quite disabling, so I would also see his use of a disabled loo as OK due to the invisible disability of GD, where no unisex loo is available.

I know many people with disabilities would disagree with that. And I hope he'd inform himself about that too.

You can't negotiate with bullies.

Disabled people have fought like hell for the facilities they need to have equal access to buildings, toilets and transport. Why can't trans people campaign for their needs in a similar way?

Exactly.

Third spaces are a nice idea theoretically but a) in the majority of cases they're not realistically going to happen and b) it means all transpeople would have to reveal their status which puts them at far greater risk of harm. Transpeople are at risk from male violence as well.

No, because all their legions of allies (so they would have us believe) will be marching on in to those third spaces in solidarity as well, right? Why would such a friend abandon them to use single sex spaces when they have an inclusive option?