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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

999 replies

thetonsillolith · 08/06/2019 17:18

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:20

with vigilance and effort, the old prejudices will eventually be stamped out.

Yes, what they actually mean by 'old prejudices' here is women's safety and privacy.

Stamp it, stamp it out!

JacquesHammer · 09/06/2019 11:20

How does a woman live as a woman? It's an impossible question to answer, as a natal woman

Because we are all shaped by our biology and our experiences as a woman.

Someone who is biologically a man cannot have those experiences.

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:22

Did she, I didn't see it? I've had a quick look but I couldn't see any definition, could you post it again?

Yes she did and no, I can't post it again because you can just as easily look back as I can. I'm not your secretary. If you want to see her definition then look back through her posts. It'snot too difficult. It was posted this morning.

Amazonfromkent · 09/06/2019 11:22

If believing that your biological gender cannot be modified makes me transohibic, so be it.

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:23

I searched #transgirls on Twitter, I saw stuff I didn't like (I won't repeat what I saw again!). I used 'brain bleach' to convey that I didn't like what I saw.

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:25

Yes she did and no, I can't post it again because you can just as easily look back as I can. I'm not your secretary. If you want to see her definition then look back through her posts. It'snot too difficult. It was posted this morning.

If you know that she posted a definition, and that she posted it this morning, you must know what the definition was so you could just paraphrase it now so that we can continue the discussion?

Fairenuff · 09/06/2019 11:25

Not all biological woman experience womanhood the same either.

Exactly! That's the whole point. Being a woman is purely your sex, your biology, your physical make up. Everything else is experiences and not all women share it.

The only thing we share is our sex.

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:25

Because we are all shaped by our biology and our experiences as a woman.

Someone who is biologically a man cannot have those experiences.

And our experiences of having the same biology and of being a woman will not all be the same. If I've never had period pain or heavy periods can I define what it is like to have a period, based on my experience? No.

Can I define what it is like to be pregnant based on my experience? No

I've not experienced lots of things that other women have so can I define what it is like to be a woman based on my experiences? No

So what does living as a woman mean?

JacquesHammer · 09/06/2019 11:26

And our experiences of having the same biology and of being a woman will not all be the same. If I've never had period pain or heavy periods can I define what it is like to have a period, based on my experience? No

But you know what it’s like to have a period, right? You have the biological experience of a period.

Can I define what it is like to be pregnant based on my experience? No

But you are of the sex that can be pregnant.

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:27

Exactly! That's the whole point. Being a woman is purely your sex, your biology, your physical make up. Everything else is experiences and not all women share it.

Then why ask anyone to explain how a trans woman can live as a woman? What does love get as a woman mean?

Fyette · 09/06/2019 11:28

OP – I would describe myself as an intersectional feminist, and I think trans women's rights are women's rights. In the words of the feminist chat: I am woke, I have drunk the kool-aid, I’m a libfem, or worse: a handmaiden. I was in a relationship with a transman for three years, and through him made friends with quite a few trans people (FtM and MtF) and witnessed the harassment and obstacles they face on a daily basis, so even though I am not myself trans, trans rights are close to my heart.

Most people who like you and me would argue for trans rights (as a part of feminism) have long since given up on engaging here, because no productive debate seems possible. It's hard though, especially during these last few days, and sometimes I feel I should engage because as a ciswoman I at least won't feel personally attacked, and it is important to have our voices represented.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/06/2019 11:29

Apparently it's not possible to be both a feminist and supportive to the trans community.

Of course it is

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:29

If you know that she posted a definition, and that she posted it this morning, you must know what the definition was so you could just paraphrase it now so that we can continue the discussion?

No, I can't paraphrase what she said. If you want to continue the discussion (which clearly you don't, you just want to derail) then you will look back and read her definition yourself. Then you will be in a position to continue bthe discussion (if that is what you want to do)

sackrifice · 09/06/2019 11:29

So what does living as a woman mean?

Existing on the planet as an adult, human, female.

FermatsTheorem · 09/06/2019 11:30

Many of us have already agreed that we don't see all trans people as fetishists, but that some people claiming the label trans are.

At the moment we have laws (the Equalities Act, the Gender Reassignment Act) under which the protected characteristic in law is gender reassignment, not gender identity. In theory (if not in practice) gender reassignment is subject to gate keeping - among other things, you have to convince a psychologist that your motives are genuine and (this is based on what transwomen themselves have told me) specifically the process is designed to weed out men pretending to transition because of sexual fetishes.

So we have a legal framework on the books right now which attempts to balance on the one hand the rights of trans people to live fulfilled lives as they see fit without interference with others and on the other hand the rights of women to have single sex spaces and provision where that is necessary and proportionate (the Equalities Act is absolutely crystal clear about this). Like all legal frameworks, it doesn't work perfectly, but it is at least taking into account the possibility that the needs and rights of women and trans people are different and may on occasion come into direct conflict, conflict which needs to be resolved in a reasonable way, not by screaming "transphobia" and "no debate".

There is a push to replace this with self-ID, which would provide no such mechanism to keep male-bodied fetishists out of women's spaces. If you are in favour of self-ID you owe the rest of us some account of how you're going to deal with the fetishists. You owe us an account of how you're going to handle the Karen Whites, the Lauren Jeskas, the Lisa Hauxwells of this world. You owe the woman who turned up for her smear test to be confronted by an obviously male HCP saying "but I am a woman." You owe the women who love playing rugby an account of why they should put up with a massively enhanced risk of spinal injury when the opposition decides to play a 6'4" male bodied individual in the front row of the scrum.

You cannot just change the law on the basis of less than 1% of the population while materially affecting the lives of 51% of the population.

This is not like gay marriage where what a couple chooses to do or not do in their own life has no impact whatsoever on anyone else.

This affects whether I as a woman have the right to ask for a female HCP, undergo rape counselling in an all-female support group, flee from DV into a shelter I know will be free from male-bodied individuals, be imprisoned only with female bodied people, not have to get naked in front of a stranger with a penis when I want to go swimming (I can think of three pools I use regularly which only have open-plan single sex changing rooms), not play contact sports against a male-bodied individual who may cause me lasting spinal injury. And it affects every other woman in this country in the same way.

You don't get to silence debate on this by shrieking "transphobia" at every opportunity. Nor do you get to tone-police women who are justifiably angry at the way a well-organised lobby group has been attempting to sneak these changes in under the radar without anyone noticing.

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:30

But you know what it’s like to have a period, right? You have the biological experience of a period.

Yep. And a woman who isn't having periods when she should be, has the experience of being someone who knows that she should be having periods but isn't for some reason or other.

That is uniquely female experience. No male has ever had that experience. No transwoman has ever had that experience.

LimeKiwi · 09/06/2019 11:30

Lime, do you think you might have been over thinking it a bit?

Lol, see what I mean, you can't win what ever you say on the subject here, can you?

Lime, define how it is for you, define womannnnn"

Eh, Don't you think you're overthinking now?

Fecks sake lol.

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:31

Living as a woman means existing with a female body. It's not that hard really!

sackrifice · 09/06/2019 11:31

I would describe myself as an intersectional feminist, and I think trans women's rights are women's rights. In the words of the feminist chat: I am woke, I have drunk the kool-aid, I’m a libfem, or worse: a handmaiden. I was in a relationship with a transman for three years, and through him made friends with quite a few trans people (FtM and MtF) and witnessed the harassment and obstacles they face on a daily basis, so even though I am not myself trans, trans rights are close to my heart.

So you believe that the rapist Karen White is a woman? On what basis do you believe this?

NotBadConsidering · 09/06/2019 11:33

So why then do we demand that trans woman have to answer this question, to out satisfaction?

Because trans women want to access women’s spaces, sport, prisons etc purely on the basis of their answer to this question. You don’t think this should be questioned?

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:34

But you know what it’s like to have a period, right? You have the biological experience of a period.

I know what it is like for me. If I find them really easy and no big deal does that mean anything? Does that go anyway in describing the experience "for women"? No. And what of women who have never had a period? They've never had that experience.

You can't define things by experience so why are we imposing that stipulation onto trans women? People saying how can a man live as a woman? I don't know. How do women live as women?

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:34

I find it hilarious that all these 'definitions of woman' always get lost in the ether of 'other threads', or 'earlier on' in massive threads, but never appear in the current discussion.

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:35

Living as a woman means existing with a female body. It's not that hard really!

What is a female body?

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 11:36

And what of women who have never had a period? They've never had that experience.

Theyve never had that experience because there is something wrong with their biologically female body which means they have never had a period.

That is a uniquely female experience which no male, including transwomen, has ever had.

DecomposingComposers · 09/06/2019 11:38

I find it hilarious that all these 'definitions of woman' always get lost in the ether of 'other threads', or 'earlier on' in massive threads, but never appear in the current discussion.

It's not in other threads and it's not lost in this massive thread. It's back maybe a couple of pages. If you missed it or won't look back that is your problem. It's not up to anyone else to look back for you. It is there. Posted within the last hour or so, not hurried deep 20 odd pages ago.

You clearly don't want a discussion, you just want to waste time arguing about something that doesn't matter.

If you want to see it, look.

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