To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

If they are living as a woman then they share virtually every common ground with me. Perhaps not reproductively, but then I wouldn't share this with lots of 'biological' women anyway, if they'd had a hysterectomy for example.

Could you be more specific about that common ground? I can't think of any common ground that I share with all.other women, except for the experience of having a female body. Transwomen will never have that experience.

The point about the fetish thing is that under a culture of 'self id' or 'transwomen are women' all transwomen including the ones with the fetishes would be allowed into women's spaces. And therefore women would have to be, against the consent, part of that fetish.

How are women supposed to know who are the genuine transwomen and who are just in there to get their rocks off?

Someone who is at the start of transitioning, I'd agree will struggle to be seen as a woman, and transwoman msy be more appropriate. But someone who has lived as a woman for years and has had surgery

So becoming a woman is the process of changing your body to the point where other people might mistake you for female?

How does a man live as a woman?

Perhaps not reproductively, but then I wouldn't share this with lots of 'biological' women anyway, if they'd had a hysterectomy for example.

Women who have no womb because they have had a hysterectomy are NOT the same as males who have no womb because they have a male reproductive system.

How bloody offensive!

I think sometimes the discussions on here are not helpful, they almost make it harder to discuss concerns about women's sports or safe spaces for young girls/women fleeing domestic abuse. These are important issues to discuss - and I think the legislation does make it clear that if there is a good reason for restricting access then that's completely acceptable. However, the discussions always focus on the worst case - the bearded 6ft 4 man who self identifes as a woman to access female only spaces. There have been numerous discussions on hypothetical situations and frequent comments about entitled men. It reads very much like the hysterical anti feminist articles you sometimes get 'has feminism gone to far now quote extreme feminist idea suggested by a couple radical women that disadvantages men and pretend it's what all feminists think . The conversation would get much further if there was some empathy shown towards people going through something incredibly traumatic and focused on ordinary trans men and women rather than the very vocal extremists/criminals.

However, the discussions always focus on the worst case - the bearded 6ft 4 man who self identifes as a woman to access female only spaces.

But all safeguarding is about 'the worst case'.

Most people have never committed crimes but still need a DBS to work with vulnerable people. Do we just chuck out DBSes?

My husband would never hurt anyone, he is a good man, but does that mean that we should let him and all the other 'good men' into female spaces?

I've just checked that hashtag on google image search, twitter and instagram. There are reams of trans girls posting selfies , just normal selfies. The only image I can find of anyone in underwear has been posted on twitter 4 mins ago. But even that is just an image of a person in underwear from the back. No big deal.

I know the kind of porny pictures you are talking about , but they are not the majority. Anymore than porny pictures of natal women make up the majority of selfies they post.

I stand by my comment.

The brain bleach comment was unnecessary and insulting and in my opinion is transphobic .It is the sort of comment that makes these thread descend into transphobia.

Reported it. Let's see what MNHQ think

How bloody offensive!

And that is from a woman, apparently.

There have been numerous discussions on hypothetical situations and frequent comments about entitled men

There is a thread called 'it never happens' all about this, and documenting all the times it has actually happened. You might want to have a read of it.

Yeah, I made it up that I saw someone sticking a coke can up their bum

Oh wait, no I didn't, that was my experience, I didn't like it and I'm allowed to say that.

The conversation would get much further if there was some empathy shown towards people going through something incredibly traumatic and focused on ordinary trans men and women rather than the very vocal extremists/criminals.

Women did show empathy. For many many years. Then people started taking advantage of that and women are now saying 'no'.

I could go online and see a natal women sticking a coke can up their bum without much looking.

But that doesn't mean that I'd be justified in saying that all natal women do that. Or that looking at #natalwomen hashtag madam want to bleach my brain.

and seriously sackrifice, swearing at me? because disagree with your? Is that all you have?

Men who are indulging their fetish by getting their dicks out in public and dressing up in lingerie whilst being told they are a nasty little girl aren't going through a traumatic time. They are having a great time. At the expense of women. They don't get my sympathy.
I also don't see them as transgender in any sense, and I don't believe that transpeople are all fetishists. I find it bizarre that stonewall and other advocates want to include cross dressing fetishists in trans advocacy.

@gingerginger2 do you see fetishistic #tgirl #sissygirl males as transwomen?

Some posters have said openly that transgender woman are men with a fetish. Not dysphoria.

Firstly they say some transgender women are men with a fetish.

And secondly, even Stonewall agrees with that. Men who cross dress come under the trans umbrella. And so do people without dysphoria.

So is Stonewall transphobic too?

Can you give your definition of 'woman' then please?

And this was exactly my point.

She did give her definition. Just because you don't agree with is irrelevant, she still have it.

If I asked you for a definition but I don't agree with it would you engage if I continued to ask you to provide a definition?

But that doesn't mean that I'd be justified in saying that all natal women do that

I never said all transwomen do that?

I said I looked at the #transgirls hashtag and didn't like what I saw?

So are you saying that you would be fine with males who are indulging in their fetish being allowed into female spaces?

She did give her definition. Just because you don't agree with is irrelevant, she still have it.

Did she, I didn't see it? I've had a quick look but I couldn't see any definition, could you post it again?

Sorry a bit late to the party here and I must admit I haven't read all the currently 33 pages of this thread so my question may already have been answered but I'll ask anyway.
If transwomen are women why the need to label natal women as cis women?

The issue OP is that those who are making the transphobic posts are hiding behind women's rights. Apparently it's not possible to be both a feminist and supportive to the trans community.

But in answer to your question, there's actually no point in arguing with them, Mumsnet is not the place. I don't believe that in the real world it is as transphobic - definitely not in the public sector where I work anyway, which gives me hope.

This is aphid eaters proposal.

with vigilance and effort, the old prejudices will eventually be stamped out.

I find this really to be dreadful intolerance.

The language for a start is vicious. Stamped out? How will you go about stamping out what you think are my prejudices Aphideater? Where will you be doing this stamping? What part of my body do you plan on stamping out the prejudice from? My head presumably?

Women did show empathy. For many many years. Then people started taking advantage of that and women are now saying 'no'.

This was me. Until male bodies started turning up in female sport with no fucks given to the women whose places they were denying. Male entitlement at its finest.

How does a man live as a woman?

I think questions like this are part of the problem.

How does a woman live as a woman? It's an impossible question to answer, as a natal woman.

Do I live as a woman? I don't know. I live as me. My experiences being a woman aren't the same as every other woman so how can I define what it is to live as a woman. I can define what it is to live as me.

So why then do we demand that trans woman have to answer this question, to out satisfaction? Trans women are individuals, just as women, men and trans men are individuals. Why are we so obsessed with labelling certain experiences?

So are you saying that you would be fine with males who are indulging in their fetish being allowed into female spaces?

Again, stop with the false equivalences!

I am saying that insulting language like "Oh God, I still have to use brain bleach on a regular basis after googling #transgirls on Twitter. is not helpful, constructive and is one of the reasons that mumsnet is considered transphobic.

MumsnetHQ, please can you comment to say whether you consider

"Oh God, I still have to use brain bleach on a regular basis after googling #transgirls on Twitter.

to be transphobic?