To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

Adding that a transwoman will never be a woman, and stating this as a 'biological' fact, does feel to me to be creeping into transphobia.

Actually lots of trans allys say this isnt transphobic of any sort. They claim everyone knows you cant change sex.

You clearly believe you CAN indeed change sex and thinking anything else is verging on transphobia.

It is biological fact. How can you claim it's anything else?

The only thing that really gives me any comfort is that out in the real world, the fight for trans rights is being won.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that the fight will be 'won' when males have unfettered access to female spaces? Can you see why females might have a problem with this?

I think you’re mistake

"Alternative route" halfway down the page.

Ooh as for the ‘what is a woman’ I’m about to piss a lot of you off.

Woman: Adult human female.
Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
Denoting: be a sign of, indicate.

Definitions are all open to interpretation really.

Oh God, I still have to use brain bleach on a regular basis after googling #transgirls on Twitter.

THIS is the kind of comment I mean.

This is a personal insult against transpeople, showing disgust at transpeople. It's not necessary. It lowers the tone. It's not constructive or kind.

Denying the experience of being trans 'because biology' sounds to me comparable to saying that being gay is a choice

That makes no sense

It would be comparable if someone said gay...because biology or they said trans...is a choice

Adding that a transwoman will never be a woman, and stating this as a 'biological' fact, does feel to me to be creeping into transphobia.

How?! How is that transphobic?

Actually I know how it is transphobic. The whole concept of 'transgenderism' relies of everyone 'playing along' and pretending that yes, a biological male is of course a woman. So when people don't, then I guess yes, that is transphobic.

Meh.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that the fight will be 'won' when males have unfettered access to female spaces? Can you see why females might have a problem with this?

Trans women aren’t males.

What are your thoughts on the fact that Rape Crisis Scotland (to take once example with which I am personally very familiar) is fully supportive of self-ID, and has safely supported trans women for decades?

Can you see why I might find the evidence of a service like that more compelling than the unfounded insinuations and emotive appeals to fear I read on mumsnet threads?

Woman: Adult human female.
Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
Denoting: be a sign of, indicate.

And? How does this turn a man into a woman? These men still produce male gametes. How is this signifying that they are producing female gametes?

Denying the experience of being trans 'because biology' sounds to me comparable to saying that being gay is a choice

People aren't 'denying the experience of being trans'. They are saying that men can't be women and therefore should be allowed in women's spaces. It's totally different.

Being gay doesn't require anyone else to change a single thing about the way they live their own lives. The same can't be said about transgenderism.

Trans women aren’t males

How are they not males?

Oh God, I still have to use brain bleach on a regular basis after googling #transgirls on Twitter.

THIS is the kind of comment I mean.

This is a personal insult against transpeople, showing disgust at transpeople. It's not necessary. It lowers the tone. It's not constructive or kind.

Can I ask if you have searched the #Transgirls hashtag? You do know the kind of pictures that are being referred to here, don't you? They aren't just pretty selfies of 'transgirls' in their best makeup and dresses.

I'm not saying the comment above is particularly kind, but it is pointing out that some 'transgirls' present a very strange idea of what it means to be a 'girl'.

Trans women aren’t males.

How can you possibly argue this? Just how?

This is a personal insult against transpeople, showing disgust at transpeople. It's not necessary. It lowers the tone. It's not constructive or kind.

Well when they are all on twitter with their erect penises hanging out of lingerie...it's not us lowering the tone. Why should we be kind to men who are trying to get you to look at their penises on social media?

@Earlywalker

I completely agree with your posts.

People on these threads are very fond of saying that debate is welcomed, that transphobia doesn't happen, that everyone can state their views and anyone who has ever dared to post an opposing view knows that is patently untrue. As soon as you post something in support of trans men and women the personal attacks begin. Their is no debate. They refuse to engage with anything you say and instead issue a barrage of demands, you are expected to answer their questions but only in a way that suits them. If you give an answer that they don't like they refuse to accept that is your opinion and continue with their demands that you answer their questions, but never answer yours. Eventually they resort to getting personal, including refusing to allow you an opinion because they decide you are a man!!!!

They argue that this board is not transphobia yet you only need to look at the number of deletedposts to know that isn't true. By forcing anyone with an opposing view off of the threads this place is indeed anechoic chamber. Only one view is heard and then they all give each other a congratulatory pat on the back for being so clever.

I'm sorry that it affected you so personally.

Transwoman are not biological woman as defined by biology, chromosomes, organs and genitalia.
That is not to say transwoman aren’t a type of woman in their own right. That comes down to your beliefs.

You don’t have to produce ova to be defined as a woman. My sister never has, nor has she got a womb, had a period or will ever be able to have a child or her own. She is very much a woman.

Oh christ, can we not have the 'denoting' discussion again please!

'Denoting' in this context does NOT mean 'appear outwardly, with copious amounts of surgery, hormones, make up and whatever else, to possibly be of the sex which produces ova'.

Argh!

People on these threads are very fond of saying that debate is welcomed, that transphobia doesn't happen, that everyone can state their views and anyone who has ever dared to post an opposing view knows that is patently untrue

Opposing views are never evidenced. It's all about being kind.

How are trans women not male again?

That is not to say transwoman aren’t a type of woman in their own right. That comes down to your beliefs.

Ok

Can you give your definition of 'woman' then please?

In what way is a transwomen, a woman? What does 'transwomen are women' mean to you? What common ground do I share with transwomen that means we both fall into the group 'women'?

Depends really on the circumstances. Someone who is at the start of transitioning, I'd agree will struggle to be seen as a woman, and transwoman msy be more appropriate. But someone who has lived as a woman for years and has had surgery, why wouldn't I call them a woman? If they are living as a woman then they share virtually every common ground with me. Perhaps not reproductively, but then I wouldn't share this with lots of 'biological' women anyway, if they'd had a hysterectomy for example.

I agree that there are questions on self ID, but I can't see any advantage to denying transwomen the title of woman.

i"ve just searched that hashtag and it is just pages of pictures of trans girls.

The comment is awful. It is insinuating that looking at a trnaswomen makes your brain feel dirty, that it needs cleaning, worse than that, that needs bleaching afterwards. It's a horrible comment pulling down the debate.

The facts are enough.

Even if the comment was referring to some of the porny images that "some" trans women post, that's no way fair to the thousands of trans women that don't post porny images of themselves.

There's a minority of natal women too that post porny images of themselves online. That doesn't mean that all natal women do , and that all women are porny sluts.

This is a personal insult against transpeople, showing disgust at transpeople. It's not necessary. It lowers the tone. It's not constructive or kind.

The reason that I needed brain bleach was because when I searched #transgirls I saw a person with a penis wearing 'ladies' underwear and sticking an actual Coke can up his arse. I wasn't expecting to see that tbh. It was under #transgirls.

All of the above it factual (oh apart from I didn't actually bleach my brain).

THIS is the kind of comment I mean.

This is a personal insult against transpeople, showing disgust at transpeople.

Have you actually looked at this hashtag? It's full of photos of males in lingerie with their erect penises poking out, videos of males in lingerie and makeup being anally penetrated by other males or by dildos. Photos of males at work in the toilets lifting their clothes to show their fetish lingerie underneath with comments that show how they are being turned on by wearing those undergarments around unsuspecting coworkers. You have no clue. I find AGP fetishists who indulge in sissification fetishes to be disgusting. I don't claim that all transwomen are motivated by fetish but I don't accept that fetishistic males who get turned on by adopting tropes of submissing females are women, in any possible understanding of the word.

Oh and this was on Twitter by the way, not some porn site!

ut someone who has lived as a woman for years and has had surgery, why wouldn't I call them a woman? If they are living as a woman then they share virtually every common ground with me. Perhaps not reproductively, but then I wouldn't share this with lots of 'biological' women anyway, if they'd had a hysterectomy for example.

You believe that a man can be the same as a woman who has had a hysterectomy?

That's your evidence that men can change sex, because some women have medical problems due to their female biology that means they have to have their wombs removed?