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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

999 replies

thetonsillolith · 08/06/2019 17:18

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
CodenameVillanelle · 09/06/2019 09:47

Some women sleep with trans women or intersex women

Intersex women are female. They are not trans, they are not a 'third sex'. Do not 'other' intersex women by including them with transwomen or implying that people who are in relationships with intersex women are somehow dating 'outside' their sexual orientation.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 09/06/2019 09:48

You don’t believe it exists

Of course transgender people exist.
People who are drawn to stereotypes of the opposite sex and even those who have a warped view of their body due to disphoria clearly aren't fiction.

However they can't change their sex.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 09/06/2019 09:52

Could you explain what you mean when you say we think they don't exist early?

CodenameVillanelle · 09/06/2019 09:53

But I cringe when I think of people new to this debate reading some of the threads on there .They totally play into the accusations of mumsnet being transphobic.

That's interesting. I've read dozens and dozens of posts on mumsnet and twitter, Facebook etc by women saying that they had their eyes opened by the mumsnet feminism boards. So they aren't offputting to lots of women.

I'd also like to say that although there are a very small number of vitriolic and genuinely transphobic posts made, they are a tiny number. On this thread I've only spotted one deletion. I've read pretty much this whole thread and I don't see any of the frothing vitriol that mumsnet GC feminists are accused of showing on 'these threads'. On the contrary, it's mannered, polite and robust discussion, of the type we adults are more than capable of handling.

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 09:54

Some posters have said openly that transgender woman are men with a fetish. Not dysphoria.

NotBadConsidering · 09/06/2019 09:55

the sheer obsessiveness, a transwoman can’t go out in public without a whole thread on MN. The obsessiveness with some transpeople and every move they make is borderline harassment and very odd.

MN in no way obsesses over every time a trans women goes out in public, instead MN focuses on those trans women whose behaviour has landed them in the news. We aren’t stalking people you know, they only come to our attention when things happen, like Katie Dolatowski sexually assaulting a child for instance.

Complete disregard for the actual issues surrounding the debate. As ‘leftys’ the likes of Trump and similar should be on your radar as a threat to all but especially woman. Yet when he bans trans people from being in the army, or bans the word, or when feminists are aligning with his type to fight against the trans movement, it’s fine to you.

This point has been discussed extensively on MN. Just because it’s something the Trump administration does doesn’t make it wrong. The question that needs to be asked is how mad is it that a sexist like Trump is inadvertently protecting single sex spaces?

The hatred of any trans events. Trans rememberance days, trans being included in LGBT, children being taught tolerance. That is nothing to do with woman, it’s to do with your prejudice.

Pride is now excluding lesbians who won’t accept penises. It’s homophobic. Trans days of remembrance are all well and dandy, but no one remembers the 3 women a week murdered in the UK. Children are not being taught tolerance, they’re being taught that if they don’t fit gender stereotypes then they can just change, with drugs and surgery at the end resulting in a life of medicalisation. It’s perfectly understandable that those on MN will not sit idly by while children are subjected to this.

Complete blanket statements on being transgender. You don’t believe it exists, fine, imagine if you were that person in those shoes, it’s not a nice thing to keep being told is it. And truth is, you don’t know.

No one disputes this. I don’t know how anyone else feels. But there are trans blogs aplenty who are telling the world that how they feel is the same as 50% of the population and we must accept it.

‘language is important’, if a transwoman wants to be called ‘She’ it wouldn’t kill you to stop saying ‘he’ you’re doing it to be spiteful and nothing more. Your biological vagina won’t drop off if you use preferred pronouns.

I will never, ever refer to violent men who assault women physically or sexually as their preferred pronoun. I think the compelling of Maria MacLachlan to so so in Court was despicable, as was the occasion when a 6 year old girl was criticised for “misgendering” Pronouns refer to the sex of a person. Failing to recognise how pronouns are used to control and coerce is part of the problem.

‘WhAt is a woman’ trotted out over and over again, I don’t know what makes a woman. I feel like a woman and have never questioned that it's wrong. I have no idea how it would feel to think you’re in the wrong body, so it’s not my place to judge that.

There is one definition of woman - adult human female - and to undermine that pulls the rug out from under ever sex-based right that exists. So to act like it’s not an important question is trivialising bullshit. It’s THE most important question.

‘peak trans’ this phrase is so rude. You wouldn’t say ‘peak Muslim’ ‘peak gays’. Stop saying things that you know are unacceptable just because other people do it too. Doesn’t make it right.

I think it’s a great phrase. It’s when people finally see the Emperor has no clothes. It’s important and part of getting more people to see what’s going on.

Stop saying anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a man or TRA. The only thing that comes through in that is that you hate woman with a different opinion to you

Too often on MN men and TRAs come along and make out they are concerned and infiltrate discussions. Unfortunately women with a different opinion on this seem to write the same stuff as these trolls, so differentiating between the two is hard. This is a problem, I agree.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/06/2019 09:56

people with the potential to become pregnant experience discrimination and disadvantages, largely as a result of that potential

society has put aside scare resources to put a number of measures in place to help those people, including

  • dedicated toilets and changing rooms to protect them when they're especially vulnerable
  • initiatives to help them enter careers that have been hard to access because of their potential to become pregnant and the way people with the potential to become pregnant are socialised
  • dedicated sport, because people with the potential to become pregnant have very different bodies from those with the potential to impregnate, meaning the two cannot compete with each other fairly in purely physical activities

some people who do not, never have had and never can have the potential to become pregnant are demanding access to these measures, diverting scarce resources to themselves, despite the fact that they do not suffer from the disadvantages that the measures are designed to counteract

well, they need to have a good explanation of why they want access to those measures. 'I want them' is not a good enough explanation.

it's about fairness for women, because - ta da! people with the potential to become pregnant are women

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 09/06/2019 10:00

Some posters have said openly that transgender woman are men with a fetish.

Some are, transvestic fetishism is covered under the transgender umbrella.

Butchyrestingface · 09/06/2019 10:01

The hatred of any trans events. Trans rememberance days, trans being included in LGBT, children being taught tolerance. That is nothing to do with woman, it’s to do with your prejudice

This is bollocks. I posted this to another thread, in view of the fall out from the sex based rights conference at Edinburgh uni last week:

”In reference to the Transgender Intersectional conference held at Edinburgh University the week before the sex-based rights conference -“

  • was there a petition against it?
No.
  • was there pressure to cancel the event?
No.
  • were there complaints that the event was “one sided” by not inviting GC presenters?
No.
  • were there protestors outside?
No.
  • was there negative media coverage before and after?
No.
  • did any of the presenters face intimidation and assault leaving the event?
No.
  • did the Feminist society resign en masse in protest?
No.
  • was social media aflame with GC feminists screaming insults at the presenters and attendees?
No.
  • did a MP issue a grovelling apology for even attending?
No.
  • did the conference itself implode from within with the audience accusing organisers of racism?
No.

And so on.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 09/06/2019 10:03

Are you denying transvestic fetishism (cross dressing fetish) exists early?

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 10:04

Actually, There are days of remembrance for woman murdered by men. On trans remembrance day last year there were 2 threads running in ‘feminism’ about it, but none on the woman’s day.

Interesting really, isn’t it?

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 09/06/2019 10:05

I certainly hope your not suggest they aren't accepted under stonewalls term of reference for the umbrella term "transgender"...

That would be denying their existence, surely?

MrsKCastle · 09/06/2019 10:06

Could I have some help from one of you who thinks it's transphobic to not believe that 'Transwomen are women'?

I would genuinely like to understand on what basis people believe TWAW.

The word women, historically, has always meant 'adult human female'. Clearly, transwomen are not female, they are male.
So they are not women according to the historical definition. In order for TWAW to be true, the word 'women' must be given another meaning. How does it help anyone to change the meaning of a universally understood word?

And what meaning would be assigned - having a particular gender identity? In that case, lots of people who used to be women according to the historical definition, suddenly aren't women any more. Myself included. How is it not incredibly offensive to redefine the word 'women' so that it includes some males and excludes many females?

Even putting aside the whole debate over 'TWAW', everyone knows that there is a difference between males and females. Some people are born with a penis, some with a vulva. They have different bodies and are treated differently because of this. Their different bodies affect them in many ways. This is simple fact.

Is it ok to state and discuss these facts? Is it ok to say that being born male is different from being born female? Or is it transphobic? How can we deal with the specific problems and issues that arise from being born female (or indeed male) if we cannot name these two distinct groups?

NotBadConsidering · 09/06/2019 10:07

Regards to fetishes:

Here is an article by the person who was lauded in the New York Times and the Guardian as being the USA’s first legal non-binary person. He now admits he has autogynephilia:

www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.dailysignal.com/2019/03/10/i-was-americas-first-non-binary-person-it-was-all-a-sham/amp/

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 10:08

Very occasionally I come across the odd comment or group of comments on the FWR boards which make me think that there is a very tiny minority of people who think that all transpeople are inherently 'bad'. Usually I report them, or I have also called them out before as well.

That does not mean that 'Mumsnet is a cesspit of transphobia blah blah blah'.

FermatsTheorem · 09/06/2019 10:10

I think you're mistaking "some" for "all". Some men do identify as trans because they have a sexual fetish. You don't have to take my word for it - there's a video of a trainer training NHS health care professionals on trans issues saying exactly that (which the trainer seems to think is just a neutral, mention in passing sort of thing) - no doubt someone will remember who it was doing the training. But not all trans people are fetishists, of course not. But Stonewall's own account of the trans umbrella includes cross-dressers, so at least some are.

Back in the day we thought we were making room for a tiny handful of individuals with severe body dysphoria who posed no threat. Most of us - nice lefty liberal women who want to get along with other people and see tolerance as a virtue - were fine with it couched in those terms. Now we are being told - not by evil "TERFS", but by organisations like Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence and the like - that the umbrella covers cross dressers, and a lot of us are feeling like we've been taken for mugs.

The problem is that if you then insitute a legal system based on self ID, which removes all sex based protections (on being able to ask for a same-sex HCP for genital exams, on placing sex offenders with penises in women's prisons, on allowing 6'4" male-bodied individuals into women's rugby), you allow the fetishists into women's spaces along with the sincere, genuine trans people - and I for one can't tell the difference just on a cursory visual examination.

Shequakes · 09/06/2019 10:10

Is it ok to state and discuss these facts? Is it ok to say that being born male is different from being born female? Or is it transphobic? How can we deal with the specific problems and issues that arise from being born female (or indeed male) if we cannot name these two distinct groups?

Its seemingly ok and transphobic at the same time. If this thread is anything to go by.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/06/2019 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/06/2019 10:17

Very occasionally I come across the odd comment or group of comments on the FWR boards which make me think that there is a very tiny minority of people who think that all transpeople are inherently 'bad'. Usually I report them

That does not mean that 'Mumsnet is a cesspit of transphobia blah blah blah

I completely agree and do the same

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 10:18

And seeing as the trans day of remembrance thing has been mentioned, if I remember correctly, while there was the odd Hmm comment, the main thrust of the discussion was about TRAs appropriating the plight of trans sex worker women of colour in South American countries (where the murder rate is high) and using them as an argument as to why, in the UK, transwomen need to have access to women's spaces. Eg. Munroe Bergdorf saying 'statistically as a transwoman of colour I only have 5 years left to live' etc.

And its not transphobic to discuss that in the context of transgender remembrance day.

JAPAB · 09/06/2019 10:19

You have said so. You dont believe a person can change sex.

They can't, if by sex you mean chromosomes. But they then they don't think they can either.

If they cant change sex, then they shouldnt be in sec segregated spaces.

Assuming that some spaces should be segregated by chromosome, then no they shouldn't. But if there are good justificationds for why a space should be segregated by chromosome, then it won't be unjustifiable discrimination. Amd therefore is not transphobia.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/06/2019 10:20

the personal insults (vile creature, bastard, thug, ridiculous ugly)

Yes people were not very happy about the person who physically attacked Bindel

If someone attempted to physically attack someone i knew the above words would be very very mild

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 10:20

Of course fetishists exist, of course they shouldn’t come under the ‘stonewall umbrella’ and it’s important to make a distinction between the two and not lump them in together.
I wouldn’t take stonewalls description of trans people any more seriously than I would the heritage foundations values on woman.
Stonewall does more harm for trans people than it does good.
I don’t think anyone disagrees that transwoman are not biological woman, they are different. Not all biological woman experience womanhood the same either.

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 10:22

Assuming that some spaces should be segregated by chromosome, then no they shouldn't. But if there are good justificationds for why a space should be segregated by chromosome, then it won't be unjustifiable discrimination. Amd therefore is not transphobia

In the UK, 98% of sexual crime is perpetrated by one class of human? Would you care to have a guess which class of human that is? I'll give you a little clue: it's to do with chromosomes.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 09/06/2019 10:23

Of course fetishists exist, of course they shouldn’t come under the ‘stonewall umbrella’ and it’s important to make a distinction between the two and not lump them in together.
I wouldn’t take stonewalls description of trans people any more seriously than I would the heritage foundations values on woman.

Stonewall are advising and lobbying the government to create laws around their definition.

Surely you can see the problem with this?

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