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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

999 replies

thetonsillolith · 08/06/2019 17:18

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
sackrifice · 09/06/2019 08:21

This is how everything is deftly switched back to 'centering men'.

Two lesbians are assaulted by men in London.

The Human Rights Campaign state that the epidemic of violence against LGBTQ people and trans women must end.

This was an attack on lesbians. No trans women in this story.

But lesbians are only ever used as a stick to get back to centre trans women.

Why do they need to mention trans women in this story at all?

Why?

To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?
sackrifice · 09/06/2019 08:22

As for the rapist who claims he is female well it's just ludicrous. He is a male irregardless of what he says or what he feels

And yet, his case was reviewed and the guidance stated he could be placed in a female prison. How fucked up is that?

SmileEachDay · 09/06/2019 08:25

sackrifice

Yep, to all that.

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 08:28

I spent a long time saying things because I don’t agree with staying silent when you disagree.
I actually agreed with the principle of what a lot of woman here were saying but some of it is plain and simple transphobia and hatred.
In the end, I gave up because I realised some people on these boards are just plain nasty individuals. Some of their comments the last time I posted actually sent me into depression because they were so so nasty and personal when I opened up about person things. Manipulative and mean. I had lots of PMs at the time and 2 people said the same thing happened to them, that when you stand up to them, they twist everything to make you seem like a horrible person that hates woman to silence you.
The MN way of thinking is not reflective of the real world, if it were, things would be going in the opposite direction to what they are now. However, because they all congregate and stay in their circles on here they have back up and think they can say what they want when they want and everyone will pat them on their virtual backs for it.
There’s a LOT of bigots in Here, dressing up their hatred as concern.
I only came back for help with parenting issues, i will not go near the ‘feminism’ boards now because those woman are not feminists. They only care about woman that think like them.

Shequakes · 09/06/2019 08:29

It was the similar with the transwomen who attacked a GC speaker last week. I believe their tweet read something like

'Lost my shit at 'x person'. She filmed it.....I am safe'

So a transwoman who, by default is stronger because of their sex, attacked a female......but then feels the need to reassure everyone that they are safe.

How can you attack someone then possibly think that everyone needs to be reassured you are ok.

sackrifice · 09/06/2019 08:31

Just to go back to the suicide statistics previously.

A study [carried out by ReSisters] of the Data from Serious Case National Repository, 27 August 2018 found zero children had committed suicide due to being trans in the last 10 years.

One was tagged trans and that was because their father identified as female, the mother identified as male and the kids were removed for neglect and trauma.

To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?
QueenofmyPrinces · 09/06/2019 08:34

As for the rapist who claims he is female well it's just ludicrous. He is a male irregardless of what he says or what he feels

And yet, his case was reviewed and the guidance stated he could be placed in a female prison. How fucked up is that?

Very!

The way in which Transgenderism is being accepted, is in my opinion a very dangerous path to start going down.

Males will always be males and females will always be females. Nothing can ever change that when it comes to same sex spaces/sports a biological man should never be placed with biological women just because he says he is one. The whole thing is crazy.

SmileEachDay · 09/06/2019 08:37

Earlywalker

I’m sorry you had a bad experience- it’s an Internet forum, so has the full range of people!!

I hope you reported any instances of transphobia - what sort of thing was it?

those woman are not feminists. They only care about woman that think like them I’m one of “those women” - I’m deffo a feminist and I care a great deal about all women and girls!!

isabellerossignol · 09/06/2019 08:38

The MN way of thinking is not reflective of the real world, if it were, things would be going in the opposite direction to what they are now.

How naïve. That's not because the 'real world' is all so tolerant and loving. That's because the 'real world' is largely controlled by men. Women getting spied on in changing rooms etc doesn't happen to them so they don't give it a second thought. The reason Mumsnet goes against the tide is because it's dominated by women. If large corporate organisations and pressure groups and the International Olympic committee were dominated by women we'd be very unlikely to be in the position we are in now.

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 08:42

Oh all sorts!
All trans people have fetishes. Particularly nasty threads on ‘transgender day of rememberance’ about how ridiculous it is because woman die more.
Laughing at how ugly some transwoman were..
Lots of stuff. When it’s about woman’s rights, woman need to speak up. When it’s about ridiculing people who are different from the norm or stereotyping whole groups of people, it’s no longer about woman.

Shequakes · 09/06/2019 08:45

The MN way of thinking is not reflective of the real world, if it were, things would be going in the opposite direction to what they are now.

Theres actually a bit of truth in this.

In my work place, the idea of gender neutral toilets has been dropped. Mps are staring to talk against self ID. The womens issues around trans are more talked about in real life. More than they were a year ago.

I think we were heading into a situation where natal women were going to have all their rights removed so that society could appear PC. Now it seems to have slowed.

Although I actually think the TRAs are responsible for some of that with their spplailling behaviour. And high profile cases such as Karen White and more recently, Ian Huntley and his bid to get into a womens prison.

Less so because people think its important to simply listen to women a out womes issues.

SmileEachDay · 09/06/2019 08:47

Did you report them Early?

Out of interest, do you feel any posts on this thread are transphobic?

KinkyFink · 09/06/2019 08:48

Can anyone explain what they think our motive would be for mostly being lefty liberals for decades and then suddenly deciding to 'hate' transgender people? You must have a theory on why this happens when it's just so out of character. Why on earth would women who've had to fight through oppression to get simple things like employment equality and rights to bodily autonomy bother making our lives more complicated in that way?

JacquesHammer · 09/06/2019 09:02

There’s a LOT of bigots in Here, dressing up their hatred as concern

Do you play a contact sport Early?

CodenameVillanelle · 09/06/2019 09:03

I'm glad to see we got a definition finally of the 'something else'.
So what makes a male a woman is the 'female sense of self'
Which is not a feeling, or a thought, but both, and also something else.

When babies are born they have very few neural pathways - they don't know much, and they run on instinct. As they grow and develop their brains soak up information and knowledge like sponges and they develop all kinds of theories and schema about the world. Much of this happens while they are under 2, but obviously it keeps happening throughout their lives. There is another flurry of development during adolescence.
One of the things that young children learn is that they have a sex. They learn that they either have a penis or a vulva, and they start identifying with others who have the same genitalia, and learning what that 'means.
We know from research (cf Cordelia Fine) that people treat babies differently even in utero depending on whether they have a penis or a vulva. The differences become apparent to children long after they have already internalised a sense of what girls are and what boys are. This is social indoctrination really.
Anyone who has grown up female knows exactly how life changes when you go through puberty; how different life is for girls compared to boys. All those experiences shape us fundamentally in ways we do not know and can't always understand.
So yes, all girls have a 'female sense of self' in as much and as far as they have grown up as female in the world and developed a sense of self which has been utterly shaped by the fact of being female. It's impossible to extricate that from her life experience as a female infant, child, teenager and adult.
There is no possible way that a male can develop a 'female sense of self'. They do not experience life as a female. The world doesn't identify them as female and they are not treated as female.
Whatever it is that trans people feel that leads them to feel wrong in their sexed bodies is not a feeling of the opposite sex.
It literally can't be. That is impossible.
Trans people need support , they need evidence based treatment options that cause the least harm for the best outcomes. That doesn't make a male person female, or a woman. Women also need support and appropriate segregated facilities in some contexts. Trans rights cannot trump women's rights.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 09/06/2019 09:07

This is all really starting to feel like Groundhog Day.

What I find interesting with threads like these is that most posters calling GC posters transphobic/bigots etc are then politely asked their opinion on concerns such as how the trans ideology could impact on children and biological women.

These posters are never able to really answer these yet tell us how full of hatred and mean we are for voicing these concerns. Accusations of denying the existence of transpeople.

At times we get angry and shouty and often sweary. But there is much to be concerned, angry and shouty about for women and girls. This does not make you a bigot.

If you see a transphobic post you should report it. You definitely won't see posts here where people are being threatened with being raped or beaten with a baseball bat or set on fire which is the kind of crap GC woman face online from TRAs though Hmm

Earlywalker · 09/06/2019 09:19

MN delete transphobic posts, and posters say enough to not get banned. The tone remains. Everyone knows this which is why they trot out ‘show me the proof’ that cannot easily be provided.
I have never doubted that self ID poses some real risks to woman and in instances such as sport, it cannot ever be a level playing field when Biological men & woman are in direct competition.
What I categorically do not agree with is the way some people here go about it. Since you refuse to listen and just assume I hate woman. I will list why I personally think a lot of posters aren’t just ‘in it for the woman’

  • the sheer obsessiveness, a transwoman can’t go out in public without a whole thread on MN. The obsessiveness with some transpeople and every move they make is borderline harassment and very odd.
  • Complete disregard for the actual issues surrounding the debate. As ‘leftys’ the likes of Trump and similar should be on your radar as a threat to all but especially woman. Yet when he bans trans people from being in the army, or bans the word, or when feminists are aligning with his type to fight against the trans movement, it’s fine to you.
  • The hatred of any trans events. Trans rememberance days, trans being included in LGBT, children being taught tolerance. That is nothing to do with woman, it’s to do with your prejudice.
  • Complete blanket statements on being transgender. You don’t believe it exists, fine, imagine if you were that person in those shoes, it’s not a nice thing to keep being told is it. And truth is, you don’t know.
  • ‘language is important’, if a transwoman wants to be called ‘She’ it wouldn’t kill you to stop saying ‘he’ you’re doing it to be spiteful and nothing more. Your biological vagina won’t drop off if you use preferred pronouns.
-‘WhAt is a woman’ trotted out over and over again, I don’t know what makes a woman. I feel like a woman and have never questioned that it's wrong. I have no idea how it would feel to think you’re in the wrong body, so it’s not my place to judge that.
  • ‘peak trans’ this phrase is so rude. You wouldn’t say ‘peak Muslim’ ‘peak gays’. Stop saying things that you know are unacceptable just because other people do it too. Doesn’t make it right.
  • Stop saying anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a man or TRA. The only thing that comes through in that is that you hate woman with a different opinion to you.

The actual issues would be a lot more prominent and reach a wider audience if you stopped being so very obviously hateful and dismissive.

There are big issues facing woman and girls, but when it stops being about them it’s just plain hate.

gingerginger2 · 09/06/2019 09:27

I've had the same experience as Earlywalker.

Which is weird because I broadly agree with Gender critical thinking and don't agree that trans women are women and that thinking that automatically makes you a hate filled bigot. I totally think that massive changes to the fabric of society and the minutae of law should be able to be debated freely. And I don't think that a law should be based on a fundamental untruth, however "kind" it maybe to participate in that lie.

But the Feminist boards I find unkind and not just that, I find them not very clever or constructive, because of the kind of thing that Earlywalker mentions. The tone can be toxic, the constant sarcastic and derogratory remarks about trans women, the personal insults (vile creature, bastard, thug, ridiculous ugly). It just builds an ugly atmosphere that doesn't help the argument. I'd prefer it to just be fact, for me the facts are enough, the facts paint the picture more than sufficiently. The personal insults just weaken the argument and make me recoil from the general movement.

I also think it makes contructive debate and resolution to this toxic issue less likely, an issue that is causing actual physical, mental and societal harm to many many people on a daily basis and desperately needs debate and compromise.

And that position is even before getting started on what trans allies would consider transphobic (i.e. misgendering, dead naming,). I don't personally think those things are transphobic, although I won't do them myself as I know they are considered transphobic and I don't want to weaken my argument.

But when I tried to make these points this week on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605069-Julie-Bindel-physically-attacked-after-meeting I was rounded upon.

Some of the accusations against me were of "tone policing" , which is understandable. It is annoying to be told watch your language when you are justifiably angry. (it's also an argument made by trans activists and allies)

But the rest I found surreal. Suddenly , just for asking for the personal insults to stop, I was not a feminist, maybe not even a woman, was centred men and their feelings over caring about violence against women, was a misogynist, was a troll trying to take the heat off Julie Blindell's attacker, that I knew them personally, that I was a liar. I was amazed that women who I broadly agreed with rounded on me so quickly just because I held a different view to them.

Like you Earlywalker I got personal messages from others saying that they agreed with me but are too scared to go on those boards. (a fact that was ridiculed on that thread).

That echos the way I feel in real life about speaking about about my gender critical views, only daring do it in private because of the very real fear that I will lose employment and friendships for my views.

This is a terrible state of affairs. a debate so toxic that opinions are kept secret rather than debated, because of a lack of compromise, kindness and constructiveness.

It's understandable I guess. This debate is so polarised that the folk at either end are so entrenched they don't actually know how toxic they are.The are just so incredibly angry that all they do is lash out any that suggests compromise. Anyone who suggests anything less than 100% adherence to their acceptable position.

For TRA's that anyone who doesn't believe that transwomen aren't women and that thinking otherwise is literal violence and is literally killing vulnerable people.

And for the Feminist boards here, giving an inch of ground through not resulting to personal insults is seen as capitulation and a betrayal of women.

It's incerdibly depressing.

Butchyrestingface · 09/06/2019 09:28

I have never doubted that self ID poses some real risks to woman and in instances such as sport, it cannot ever be a level playing field when Biological men & woman are in direct competition.

Afraid you’ve earned your transphobic stripes just for saying that.

Don’t take those views to Twitter. At least, not if you post under your real name.

JacquesHammer · 09/06/2019 09:28

‘language is important’, if a transwoman wants to be called ‘She’ it wouldn’t kill you to stop saying ‘he’ you’re doing it to be spiteful and nothing more. Your biological vagina won’t drop off if you use preferred pronouns

I absolutely agree with this.

But in the same vein, i would have thought those that insist on using the word “cis” should stop if asked for the same reasons?

CodenameVillanelle · 09/06/2019 09:38

I don't use 'she' for males because I believe it erodes our boundaries and grooms people into viewing men as women or 'not men'. Reading newspaper articles about rapists and child abusers with female names being called 'she' dilutes the danger and risk posed by the violent abusive men that are being referred to.

JAPAB · 09/06/2019 09:39

This exemplifies the utter madness (and homophobia)

How is that homophobic? Some women sleep with trans women or intersex women. Each partner could ID as lesbian, bisexual, or even straight, the leaflet does not claim to be for any of them specifically?

gingerginger2 · 09/06/2019 09:41

The actual issues would be a lot more prominent and reach a wider audience if you stopped being so very obviously hateful and dismissive.

Completely agree EarlyWalker.

I am incredibly greatful to the mumsnet feminism boards for the education on these issues. Without which I would still think that this issue was only about being kind to a small proportion of society that had gender disphoria and were in the process of a sex change. I would not know that the definition of trans has expanded so broadly, I would not know that it's now considered transphobic tithing physical transitions necessary to be trans. I would not know that it's now thought that being transgender is literally just saying you are, and that self ID makes that position legal. And I would not have then considered all the societal changes that that legal position will impact, and whether I am comfortable with them.

But I cringe when I think of people new to this debate reading some of the threads on there .They totally play into the accusations of mumsnet being transphobic.

Outofinspiration · 09/06/2019 09:44

Good for you. I'm one telling you that there's something more out there for me.

With respect, no one gives a fuck what is out there 'for you'. We are talking about law and policy here, and how we should organise society in order to safeguard women and girls. And you are going on and fucking on about something that you, 'can't explain but know is there'. Honestly, no one cares. We are talking facts and evidence here.

Shequakes · 09/06/2019 09:47

JAPAB but you are transphobic.

You have said so. You dont believe a person can change sex. If they cant change sex, then they shouldnt be in sec segregated spaces.

This, by some peoples definitions, makes you transphobic.

You dont really want to address that though.

Just complain other people are transphobic for believing the same thing

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