To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

I mean, what's made you think really, really hard to justify why you know you're a woman when the reason you know that you're a woman is because you are a woman?

You’re not saying how it is for you though 😂 you’re going round in circles. Explaining nothing

Transwomen are women because a circle has no beginning

Fuck sake nolongersurprised 🤣

I still don't understand why women should accept the breach of their boundaries, why we should accept men in our single-sex spaces, just because a man says the magic words, "I identify as a woman," despite them being a man.

I'm with you OP but I learnt very quickly there is absolutely no changing people's minds on the internet, particularly on Mumsnet.

Don't feel too bad about it, be a good trans ally out in the real world

I'm with you OP but I learnt very quickly there is absolutely no changing people's minds on the internet, particularly on Mumsnet.

That's absurd. People change their minds all the time once they are presented with evidence. People didn't used to believe that smoking caused cancer, then scientists produced evidence. Or that the earth was round, then science proved that it actually was.

There is nothing about discussing things through the modern medium of the internet that makes people unable to change their minds. Present people with evidence and their minds will change. On this very thread there are posters saying that they used to accept the idea of twaw until they saw evidence as to how dangerous and damaging the idea was. So they changed their minds. People change their minds all the time.

There haven't been any compelling arguments so far have there loudnoises?
but I'm sure op appreciates the head pats.

Don't feel too bad about it, be a good trans ally out in the real world

In the “real world” I would consider myself a trans ally as well. I am happy to be kind, respectful of pronouns and inclusive. I wouldn’t condone genuine physical or verbal abuse.

However : I don’t believe that TWAW.

I find the transing of children abhorrent, especially when it leads to puberty blockers. I resent being told that transwomen belong in women’s sport, when it’s evident that the the effects of male puberty confer lifelong physical advantages. I’m concerned that some men will use self-Id to weasel their way into women’s spaces for nefarious purposes.

LimeKiwi what you have is a sense of self.

You will not answer. But I will ask anyway. If you can not define the 'what it feels like to be a woman'. Why are you so sure someone who was born and lived as a man, can define it and know what they are feeling? How do you know they are right? Feeling like you want long hair, or wear a dress or heels is not feeling like a woman. Lots of women do not do these things and are still women.

If being a woman is about biology AND this feeling of being a woman, why cant trans men simply change sex by feeling it.

You claim you know people can not change sex. Yet claim trans women become women. How? If its biology AND this mystery feeling, trans women are missing the biology half so therefore can not change sex. No matter how much they feel they can.

The previous pp (man) who talks about his testosterone etc is talking about social influences. Not the biology of being being a man.

The wiki link about Brains, is simply not true. There is no proven difference between the brains of the sexes. It may seem interesting to you. I love reading about polytheistic religions and the stories of the gods. I find how they are linked to creation very interesting. But they are just stories. They are not true. My feeling that they are interesting or that they explain creation in a non scientific way, doesnt make them fact.

I have a sense of self. Not the sense of being a woman. I feel like me. I know that I reject many gender stereotypes and embrace many others. Gender stereotypes are a social construct. I manage my anxiety by spending 3 nights a week, fighting. Despite being told it's not lady like. People who know me at work and see me in dresses, make up on and hair done are surprised I am also a fighter. All my hobbies are far more popular with men than women. I may wear a dress for work tomorrow. And Jean's and a mans hoodies the next day, again in work, depending on what I am doing.

I am not gender fluid. I am not identifying as a man on the days my clothes come from the mens section and a woman on the days I wear a dress. Nor does my sense of self change when I wear mens clothes. I just like mens hoodies.

I still a woman, because I was born.....a woman. If I spent my entire life in Jean's and mens hoodies, I still would not be a man.

Woman means adult human female. It's purely a biological fact. Feelings do not come into classification of sex.

No, it's just who I am. It's more than "a thought." It's both thought and feeling. Although neither. It's more. Oh blah this makes no sense reading back but I know what I mean. Totally expecting someone to drag it back to feelz now

You dragged it back to 'feelz' when you said 'it's both thought and feeling'. It's not our fault that you cannot explain yourself.

You don't have a thought or a feeling that you are a woman.

You have a body that is either male or female.

The rest is clothes, hobbies, likes, dislikes; and what is happening now is that if a child likes certain things that 'gender rules' classify should only be liked by the opposite sex, eg pink, then people are adamant that this means the child is trans. This is why 'gender' is so toxic.

It is certainly true that people often change their minds when presented with facts and cogent argument. The trouble for the genderists is that change tends to be away from their doctrine, not in favour of it.
Whenever you set out to a”trans ally” what the genderists are actually arguing for the invariable response is what the fucking fuck that’s fucking nuts. Cos it is.

It's more than "a thought." It's both thought and feeling. Although neither. It's more.

its biology.
its the fact women have a uterus and a cycle of hormones every month, and the potential to bear children.

I've rolled this out before but Kristin Scott Thomas's speech in Fleabag in which she plays a lesbian, post-menopausal, high-flying business woman puts it perfectly

Certain brain structures in trans women have been found to be similar to cisgender women's as opposed to cis men's

This is nonsense.
A) It relies on brain scans picking up activity in areas of the brain traditionally associated with being female or male. Bunkum.

B) Brains are enormously plastic - they get better at what they do most. If the owner of the brain “lives as a female” (whatever the fuck that is) - their brain will look similar to the brain of other people living in the same way.
C) The only substantive difference in male/female brains observable after death is size, on average.

This clears it up Delusions of gender

Mumsnet has certainly caused me to do a big re-think on this issue.

The stereotypical gender constructs that we have created for women are flawed- kitten heels, helpless, stipid, inept, over emotional, bad drivers, sexy, fawning over men, disorganised, scatty.
Why a man would want to shoehorn themselves into that is beyond me.
Gender needs deconstruction.
Why do forms insist on the Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms ?
Why is that even important?

Every cell in a man's body carries the XY chromosome configuration. No amount of hormone therapy or surgery can change that.

Biological men cannot possibly "feel like" women. They have no idea how women feel, they are men. The most they can feel is "not men".

I have no problem with TW as a concept or in person. I will use whatever pronoun they choose to use. But they aren't the same as natal women. And no amount of censorship, howling at feminist meetings, thumping GC feminists or demanding forums delete posts will ever make them the same.

Because biology.

I'm with you OP but I learnt very quickly there is absolutely no changing people's minds on the internet, particularly on Mumsnet.

Some of the misrepresentations and unproven blanket assumptions are far too entrenched. And desisting with them would take away some rather big sticks for bashing trans people with.

I don't think anyone believes you can change sex (if by that you mean chromosome). So arguing that you can't change sex is a strawman. People will either be talking about gender, or if they use the term sex they will be using it as a synonym for gender. They will not be claiming that chromosomes can be changed.

But acting like some people think they can change something they physically cannot, is a big rhetorical stick to beat them with.

But that and other examples just aren't going to go anywhere.

JAPAB

Which blanket assumptions can you debunk?

The most they can feel is "not men".

Even then it's simply feeling they dont meet the society gender expectations of what a man is.

This is why the tran issue is so, damaging to to teenagers. As are social gender constructs.

Being a teen is a difficult time. Most of us feel we dont fit at sometime or another. If a child feels they dont fit the gender expectations, they need to understand they dont fit gender expectations. And that's ok. Not undergo irreversible medical intervention. Not be told they must be a different sex. They need to Understand that it's ok to not be what society says they should be. They can dress and have their hair how they want.

This exemplifies the utter madness (and homophobia)

NHS guide tells women in relationships with women to wear condoms if one of them has a penis

JAPAB if you agree cant change sex. Then you agree transwomen have no place in sex segregated womens spaces.

You agree they have no place in womens sports, which are sex segregated.

You agree they have no place in womens refuges, womens rape crisis groups, womens bathrooms etc. All sex segregated

The above, according to many, means you are transphobic. I dont believe that it does. But by some peoples definitions, you are transphobic.

Even then it's simply feeling they dont meet the society gender expectations of what a man is.

These people that feel they don't meet the society gender expectations of what a man is, many of them still behave exactly like a man does. And when they get treated exactly like a woman is, they cry that it is 'transphobia'. We do not get that advantage. We cry 'sexism' and are roundly ignored.

Nobody was interested in feminism until men started saying it meant them too.

No corporate involvement in PRIDE until beardy straight men started getting involved and stating their pronouns were 'she/her'.

It is an utter farce.

It takes away from women and girls, and gives to men and boys. Every time.

its actually as simple as this....
John wants to be a donkey,
John identifies as a donkey
John dresses as a donkey
John wants to be called Donkey
is John a donkey?
No because john is a male human and John can never be a donkey no matter how many donkey suits he wears and no matter how much hay and grass he eats John will always be a male human... ALWAYS

sackrifice I suppose it's the same with their bodies.

They feel the body with the penis is the wrong body. Yet opt to keep the penis that causes them so much distress because they enjoy using it so much.

A biological man can never be a woman. They can dress like one, behave like one, want to be one and feel like one but that doesn't mean they are one.

Maybe it's short sighted and narrow minded but if I were to see a transwoman I would see a man dressing and behaving like how he perceives women should but I do not look at him and think of him as a woman.

As for the rapist who claims he is female well it's just ludicrous. He is a male irregardless of what he says or what he feels.

I accept that people can live as they wish and believe what they like, as do most people, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with it.

I do not have a religious faith but that does not mean I am phobic of those who do or that I judge and condem them. But nor do I have to agree with their beliefs just because they themselves believe them to be true.

Transphobic to me means that Trans people are the victims of hate crime, violence etc from extremely intolerant and bigoted people.

Not agreeing with some of the concepts of being Trans does not make somebody Transphobic.