To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

Because trying to suppress thought different from yours in an aggressive manner which stops all discussion of different thoughts would be considered fascist.

The cliteratti, you don't think you have any biological factors that are uniquely female have any impact on your sense of self?

But I don't have "a sense" of myself as female. I understand that I am female because I understand how categorisation works and I fulfill the criteria for being an adult human female, but it is no way via "the pricking of my thumbs" that I have this knowledge.

If we had no language at all, nobody would have any "sense" of themselves however, there would still be a class of humans who could impregnate and a class of humans who could gestate and I would always fall into the latter and a transwomen would always fall into former.

What is a 'sense of self'?

Fair enough. I think I have a sense of myself as a male so I'm just not understanding.

No Trebe, it doesn't make sense but thanks for trying.
my sense of being female is that when I was born it was observed that I had a vulva (or possibly that I didn't have a penis) and the word for that type of baby was 'girl' and that girls grow up to be women when they complete puberty and reach sexual maturity.
Thats it.

What is a sense of self is a question that would have a million different answers but I'd argue its how you understand different aspects of yourself. Thats why I think its possible to have a sense of what some of the biological drives have over us.

No because female means female sex
See, for me it's more than that.

Absolutely I do. Female biological factors are all I physically have. And I can't know what male biological factors feel like. So I could never insist I "feel like a man".

But this is not gender.

I might be quite "masculine" (in the gender stereotype way) but that does not mean I don't feel female or I'm not female.

How can one sex say they feel like another sex, when they lack the physicality that creates those feelings?

I would have thought there was less here than in most places. Mumsnet seems pretty left wing to me.

No. You have an understanding of yourself as male.

That understanding does not cause you any dissonance and therefore you don't experience any dysphoria but if you did, it would not mean that you were not in fact male. It would just mean that your thoughts are at odds with reality.

Yes, quite - there are two basic types of humans: the ones who have small, motile gametes, and the ones who have larger non-motile gametes.

One cannot turn into the other. It is impossible, because of reality.

Can I be blonde but have a sense of being red-haired?
If I dye my blonde hair red at the age of ooh, I dunno 60, will I understand what growing up as a ginger child is like?

If we had no language at all nobody would have any sense of themselves
Yes they would, as it's nothing to do with what anyone else tells you.
It's just you.

If you take away the biological aspects, what makes you "feel like a man". And how do you know this a commonly shared experience with other men? And is not experienced by women?

That understanding does not cause you any dissonance and therefore you don't experience any dysphoria but if you did, it would not mean that you were not in fact male. It would just mean that your thoughts are at odds with reality.

If you google 'transgirls' you find loads of penises. How is this at odds with reality, which is that trans girls are male?

My 'sense' of being female is totally tied up in my biology. I currently sense womanness as my stomach is cramping ten to the dozen, I felt it when birthing, I feel it when my legs are spread open so I can have a smear done and I absolutely feel it when my boobs are squished and prodded for my mammogram (which again due to my biology I have to have yearly from 40 given my increased risk of breast cancer)

That is my womanness.

The stuff that is often talked about as being the sense of womanness - long hair, make up, shoes (lots of shoes) , pretty dresses etc I have little interest for.

It is the first things that tell me who and what I am, my lack of make up doesn't mean I am not a woman.

I think that one of the major issues with discussing trans people is that we could be talking about different groups. The Stonewall definitions are overly inclusive, as you would expect from their mission statement and political agenda.
According to Stonewall, I am trans as I do not feel a particular gender. I am female, a mother, have had a stereotypically male career, do not wear make-up, or dresses/skirts - I know I am a woman, but do not feel like a woman, or a man. I feel like me - an individual. Different sexes do not have feelings that are identifiable, except in some narrow-minded, harmful, dated ways - they do have shared experiences. We should be widening the boundaries of gender stereotypes and not confirming them.

Before anyone says anyone else is a bigot, terf or handmaiden they need to define their position. I am willing to shove over a bit for people who have body dysphoria as they need help - in the same way I’m willing to give up my seat on a train to someone with a physical disability, I don’t feel the same about cross-dressers. However, there should still be single sex exemptions enforced (prisons, sport, refuges and toilets. Trans people are not the only people to have suffered in the world, they have not even suffered the most. There are more females who have been raped, than there are trans women in the UK - so yes, I put the feelings and fear of traumatised females ahead of the needs of males, who believe they are women.

Surely the biological effects your 'sense' of being female. Periods and pregnancy are obviously unique to women and surely that must affect your gender sense of being a female? Experiences only a woman can have must create a sense of being a female?

Really not, likeazombie. I've been here years and I definitely don't sock puppet.

I'm fairly sure Limekiwi admitted she doesn't think TWAW on this thread.

But racist and homophobic is just insults and personal attacks for no reason whatsoever

Wasn't calling her racist or homophobic I was making the point that our grandparents were and we now know this was wrong of them and it will be exactly the same for the grandchildren of transphobic people.

@IvanaPee The post has already been deleted for being transphobic.

Transwomen and indeed transmen have been obeying for their entire lives up to their transition they've been obeying the idiotic thought that they're wrong in how they feel. That they're not valid. Making space for them isn't obeying it's being human and welcoming others into our fold.

Trebe, what about transmen? Are you being transphobic?

A man with dysphoria does not equal being a woman.

A man with dysphoria is just that - a man with dysphoria.

A man with dysphoria is not a woman.