To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

trans people prefer to say they were assigned the wrong gender at birth rather than 'born in the wrong body'.

You mean they have co-opted intersex language which the intersex community have asked time and again, not to be used in this context.

Peng, trans people prefer to say they were assigned the wrong gender at birth rather than 'born in the wrong body'

So they agree you cant change sex?

I’m also with you OP. It actually feels a bit scary to post that, as the tone of so many of the posts here and in all the trans threads is pretty aggressive and differences of opinion are not tolerated well. There are a few prolific posters I’ve seen who are very eloquent and respectful (I’m thinking @BertrandRussell and a few others whose names I forget) and appear to be genuinely interested in open discussion. However like others have said, the feeling I have reading the vast majority is of hatred and intolerance of a group of people. Even if the posts don’t strictly contravene guidelines, the hate is palpable.

I understand that the issues are not simple and we have to find ways of respecting both groups’ rights. I found it helpful reading the recent thread about Wagamama toilets (again filled with fairly intolerant vitriol in my view) but when I could sift through that, I could hear genuine fear of being pushed into toilets and attacked. That’s just not my reality but I respect that some people feel that way and want those that feel this way to be protected. Similarly I come from a majority of people who feel that their sex and assigned gender match up. In my work I’ve spoken with a few people who feel theirs does not, and the anguish that this has caused them, I also want them to feel protected and free to be who they are.

The problem on mumsnet I think is that fears about predatory men ‘posing’ as women get extrapolated to all transwomen and the issues are much more multilayered than that.

Peng, trans people prefer to say they were assigned the wrong gender at birth rather than 'born in the wrong body'.

This is the part I don’t get, well, one of them at any rate. As far as I’m concerned, I was assigned a biological sex at birth based on my external genitalia.

Where does assignment of gender come in?

Ty for answering Damntheman.

ScrumpyBetty

But the issues that are raised about trans women and sex segregated spaces aren't just about safety. Often they are about women's preference for wanting a female carer or HCP or about certain women not being able to be in a state of undress around men due to religious reasons.

So, those issues will still apply to trans men surely? If you are in a changing room and a person who appears male walks in and starts to get changed next to you will you see them as a male or female? Will people going to a woman's only swim session be ok with a person who appears male joining in? Or a male looking person comes in to perform your smear test when you have requested a female nurse? What if you say that you asked for a female and they tell you that they are?

So how do you legislate for this?

he problem on mumsnet I think is that fears about predatory men ‘posing’ as women get extrapolated to all transwomen and the issues are much more multilayered than that

No they do not get extrapolated; the problem is that nobody can tell the difference between a predatory male and a non-predatory male in the safe spaces, and women cannot now report it as it is now 'transphobic' to question any man in a female space.

The problem is men. No multilayering about it.

I am not just concerned about predatory men gaining access to single sex spaces meant for women.

I am very much bothered about biological males competing in womens sport. Taking the sport away from women.

I mean come on. You think this fair?

There is far more tolerance of differing opinion here than any other place online I've frequented.

Peng, trans people prefer to say they were assigned the wrong gender at birth rather than 'born in the wrong body'.

No one is 'assigned a gender' at birth. That is total bollocks.

Your sex is observed based on looking at your genitals. In the vast vast majority of cases this observation would correctly match up with any chromosomal test you might have.

Then a load of stereotypical horseshit is foisted upon you, differing depending on which genitals were observed at birth.

But no one is 'assigned a gender at birth'.

There is a fundamental disagreement about the definition of "transphobic":

Those who claim MN "transphobic" seem to do so because they believe
that being a woman or girl depends only on feeling, not biology

and hence believe stating that "transwomen are not women" is transphobic
and hence - usually - that demanding single sex jails, refuges, hospital wards, smear tests, sport etc is transphobic

On the other side,
GC women think that sex is defined by biology - and that much of the danger / disadvantage to women & girls comes from biology.
Hence the demand to retain single sex facilities, to reduce danger & embarassment.

GC women do not regard transwomen as any more dangerous than any other group of men
We are not "transphobic" any more than we are "manhaters"

Most transwomen, like any other men, are decent people who are no danger to women - but we can't tell in advance which are dangerous

I don't know how we can reconcile these 2 sides.

It's very different to agnostics & atheists politely tolerating religious beliefs,
because - at least in this country - we are not required to agree that the Sky Fairy is real,
or modify our behaviour to fit these beliefs

Don't forget that is a 50 odd year old man, in a girl's college team.

the problem on mumsnet I think is that fears about predatory men ‘posing’ as women get extrapolated to all transwomen and the issues are much more multilayered than that

You think wrong. And the issue is far more multilayered than you’ve just presented it as.

I don’t think all natal men are rapists or predatory - far from it. Nonetheless, I don’t want them in sex segregated female spaces. By the same token, I don’t want transwomen, who are biologically male, in sex segregated female spaces.

No biological males in female sex segregated spaces, whether they are “cis” or trans.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing

Thats shocking

If you see transphobic or homophobic or racist posts you really should report them

I suspect that the hope is that if they can get "assigned a gender at birth" to stick - then ultimately we will all believe that sex and gender vary independently and these "assignments" occur arbitrarily....

Oh apologies

I think its shocking that you dont report such posts

But you seem to have disappeared so probably won’t pay any attention

Plenty of transwomen seem to like their penises very much, only now they are called lady dick.

What you actually mean is that some trans people learn to accept the genitals they have and decide not risk health complications and the potential loss of sexual function for a medically unnecessary surgery, because tolerance for trans people and a broader understanding of the way gender and biology intersect has enabled them to make peace with keeping the genitals they were born with

This is such a kind way to look at things. It's not true though. Go to any corner of the web where transwomen are gathering for mutual support and you will see men talking about keeping their penises because they enjoy using them. It's part of a fantasy to get breasts and adopt female identities - it turns them on - but they don't actually want to lose their penises. I saw one detailed discussion on a forum where a transwoman wanted to keep their penis as they liked sex and they said they had agonised over having 'bottom surgery'. They decided to do so in the end because some of the other members had helpfully reminded them it could be fun having an extra hole to fuck. Extra great if you like being submissive.

There are plenty of transwomen out there who do not have gender dysphoria. Being trans can be part of an elaborate fetish. I have sympathy with those who are really suffering, even if I don't believe it's possible to be born into the wrong body. I really don't feel sympathy with the latter. But we need to be talking about them because there are plenty of them all over the internet and they are being aggressive about eroding women's rights.

I’m also with you OP. It actually feels a bit scary to post that, as the tone of so many of the posts here and in all the trans threads is pretty aggressive

Aggressive? Has someone threatened you?

It's not as black and white as people seem to insist is it?

No it is definitely not black and white and I don't think any gc women are saying it is. In fact, we are trying very hard to discuss all these issues and to have them discussed by government and lawmakers too.

We started from the point of #nodebate from TRAs. We've come a long way. It's been a very hard slog just to be allowed to express our concerns. We are still fighting to be able to discuss them without fear of reprisals. There have been bomb threats, doxing, no platforming and physical assaults on women who simply want to discuss our concerns.

And how black and white is TWAW. Chant it. Say it. Believe it.

Just don't challenge it.

Being female is who they are?

Really?

How do you recognise the female?

decomposing

In answer to your question- how do we legislate for this?

It needs to be talked about and it needs to be debated. There are no easy answers. You didn't answer my question either about how women's safety can be protected by including transwomen in our spaces.
Currently, women who wish to meet to discuss their sex based rights are being intimated and silenced. Did you hear about what happened to Julie Bindel, who met to talk to feminists in Edinburgh and was attacked following this event? How can these issues that we are talking about ever be resolved if women's concerns are dismissed as transphobic and #nodebate. These discussions need to be allowed to take place, and yes they must be respectful but women simply need to be allowed to speak to discuss their safety, concerns about sports and how we legislate for this. We cannot just dismiss all of these concerns as transphobic because it isn't the case.

It's very different to agnostics & atheists politely tolerating religious beliefs,
because - at least in this country - we are not required to agree that the Sky Fairy is real,
or modify our behaviour to fit these beliefs

THIS. I actually had no problem sharing bathrooms with TW until I was told I also had to believe that they are actually female. There is absolutely no scientific basis for this. I refuse it. I don't believe this makes me transphobic and I hate that label. I don't fear trans women. I don't hate trans women. I just don't believe that they are biologically women and I think most women feel that way.

So, could a lesbian have a trans woman as a lesbian partner, or a gay man be with a trans man? Of course. If they fancy each other. First and foremost, we need to recognise that trans women are women, and trans men are men.

Look, any adult can sleep with any other consenting adult if they wish to. That should go without saying.

But I find this view so homophobic. Let's go back to when homosexuality was illegal. People risked being imprisoned if they slept with someone of their own sex. They risked financial ruin and social ostracization. Some homosexual people underwent horrendous medical treatments to try to 'cure' themselves of their desires, like cauterizing their urethras and having bleach put in their eyes because the consequences of being gay could be so serious.

If homosexuality was just about being attracted to the same gender, historically, gay men could have sought out a masculine woman/transman for a partner (if you say that being trans is innate and fixed, then the Victorian period had lots of transmen walking around having to just get on and wear dresses, etc). Never mind what that person's sex was (female). They could have cracked on and had fulfilling lives without risking their safety. There wouldn't have been anymore near the amount of misery there was. Society wouldn't have blinked, would they?

It is so profoundly insulting to all the gay and lesbian people who had to live double lives and risk their safety to have sexual relationships to say that homosexuality is about same gender attraction. I don't understand why more people can't see that. Very very few gay men (whose sex is male) are ever going to accept a transman as a partner. It will just never happen. Because it's about same sex attraction. And humans can discern sex very easily.

If you want to say a transwoman is a woman, if you want to change legislation based on that, you have to come up with some concrete evidence as to why they are. Feelings are transitory, subjective and invisible.

Meanwhile, the rest of the internet has its own opinion: www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

"I don't feel safe around male bodied people. Where I did have a safe place, ie public toilets, bathrooms etc, my fears are now not allowed and I must allow male bodied people to be there, no matter what, because how they feel is more important than how I feel. I am a transphobic TERF if I say anything, even one word, about my natural fears of male.bodied people". Is what it basically.boils down to. I am afraid of men. I have been assaulted, violated, and abused by men. I am afraid of being near them, and cannot control my innate fear of seeing one. But I guess that makes me a transphobic TERF.