Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

S1naidSucks I did say be kind, but I also said that goes both ways. Insisting on referring to me as cis would not be kind and I would explain, kindly not angrily, that I do not have a gender identity so it's incorrect to call me cis. Whether I was prepared to change in front of an individual family member depends on that individual. An individual of either sex trying to insist on it would feel creepy so if they were like that I probably wouldn't. I would not accompany them to a public women's facility as it's not my or my family member's decision to make for women that don't know them to make an individual judgement.

@thirdfiddle
Do you realise that disabled people do not wish to move over for trans people? Neither should they. They can not identify out of being disabled. Whereas a transperson can decide to dress in clothes, which fit their biological sex and change in the corresponding changing rooms or piss in the corresponding toilets.

My aunt is transgender (male to female)... It's not even really a 'thing'.
She's a woman.

thirdfiddle, I’m referring to the ones implying that not accepting this person as a woman and shutting up, not the ones, like yourself that are actually aware that people can’t change sex.

Please don’t ask disabled people to move over, so those who identify as trans can use the facilities intended for them. It’s bad enough that the toilet is often used by people who are too embarrassed to shit in the female toilets and my child has to wait, but we don’t need those who are confused, using them as well.

I’m not referring directly to you, but it just seems like:
Women, move over.
Disabled people move over.
Everyone move over for the most oppressed.

That doesn’t sound like oppression to me.

You either accept this person that you love so much for who they are or you lose them - that's the bottom line. What you actually think they should call themselves is irrelevant.
It's not different to someone coming out as gay to be told - no you're not that doesn't exist, or "I don't believe in gay people or homosexuality, you're confused.' or You're wrong for being gay.
Up to you.

So all you posters that are telling the OP to be ‘kind’, understanding, ‘nice’, accepting, etc, how far should she go. Should the OP not mention her period, in case it ‘triggers’, her relative? Should she accept any labels that the relative puts on her, in case refusing to accept the label ‘cis’ means that the male identifying as trans feels that such a refusal means they don’t really accept the relative as an actual woman? Should she be happy to share a changing room or even a bed, if she stays over, as the MIAT states that they’re BOTH ‘women’? Where does the OP draw the line, or should she just go along with all the proclamations that twaw, because it would be cruel not to?

So dramatic. Being kind and understanding to a loved one is not incompatible with maintaining your own sense of comfort.

OP can draw the line wherever she wants to, and it makes sense that it's somewhere that she feels comfortable with that hopefully doesn't upset or cause arguments with her relative. It's quite simple really.

So all you posters that are telling the OP to be ‘kind’, understanding, ‘nice’, accepting, etc, how far should she go. Should the OP not mention her period, in case it ‘triggers’, her relative? Should she accept any labels that the relative puts on her, in case refusing to accept the label ‘cis’ means that the male identifying as trans feels that such a refusal means they don’t really accept the relative as an actual woman? Should she be happy to share a changing room or even a bed, if she stays over, as the MIAT states that they’re BOTH ‘women’? Where does the OP draw the line, or should she just go along with all the proclamations that twaw, because it would be cruel not to?

Talk about jumping the gun. None of this has happened so far and there's no reason to think it will.

they are male at a biological level but wish to opt out of the gender expectations of masculinity
I think that's a great way of putting it

Honestly this baffles me. If she wants to be called she it or Wonder Woman. Why not accommodate her?. It doesn't impact you either way.

OP You say you are close with this person, did you believe they were a female trapped in a male body before they told you? In other words, did they act or say things that you'd expect from a female/girl?

I've recently watched an interesting video made by a man who lived as a female for decades. Hormones and even surgery. He is now back to being male. Anyway, he said that young people, especially children get all the attention in the room when they pretend to be another gender.

I think there are a lot of incredibly innocent posters on here who really need to educate themselves in the trans narrative, or they’re incredibly disingenuous. The OP has already been told to shut up and accept it, twaw and that she isn’t entitled to an opinion, so those are accusing me of being dramatic or saying it hasn’t happened yet, why haven’t you actually answered the question? Why do you assume the OP won’t be put in this situation?

When I was incredibly sympathetic to transexuals, I didn’t for one minute think that years later lesbians would be called terfs and bigots for not wanting to sleep with males who identify as lesbians.

Honestly I think that would be the end of my relationship with them
Wow. You'd disown a family member because of who they were?
I honestly do not get that mindset, it's awful.
No wonder people hide who they are when there's that level of vile out there.

Talk about jumping the gun. None of this has happened so far and there's no reason to think it will.

Actually, OP has a reason for posting. She states that she loves her relative and wants to support them, including in their transition. But she clearly has worries. The worries are why she has posted. It seems to her that her relative is articulating some extreme ideas about transition that she can't agree with. She says she would like to find a way to speak about this, while still being supportive, but is afraid to and afraid she will be told she is at fault. She's also said later in the thread that it is impossible to avoid the topic completely (which would be the easiest option) because her relative insists on it being a constant talking point.

OP is clearly concerned.

Again: this is not about transition per se - this is about negotiating a healthy relationship with a relative. OP should not be afraid to state genuinely held views and should not be made to feel that she should suppress her own needs and opinions with any relative, transgender or otherwise.

OP: it probably won't be as bad as you think.

I think there are a lot of incredibly innocent posters on here who really need to educate themselves in the trans narrative, or they’re incredibly disingenuous. The OP has already been told to shut up and accept it, twaw and that she isn’t entitled to an opinion, so those are accusing me of being dramatic or saying it hasn’t happened yet, why haven’t you actually answered the question? Why do you assume the OP won’t be put in this situation?

I answered your question of where to draw the line. Which covered all the other questions, I believe. For example, she should say no to sleeping in a bed with this relative if she wants, just as she should with any other relative. (I've never been asked to share a bed with any relative though!)

There's a big difference between fighting the trans movement in general—and the consequent erosion of womens rights—and being needlessly unkind to a loved one. You don't have to signal how strongly you feel about a social issue by being a dick to individuals, especially ones you're close to and care about!

@Baddabingbaddaboom - my thoughts entirely.

I would say nothing until she asks you to say something or agree with something that you disagree with.

If you wanted to get to that point of disagreement though (so you can air your views because it seems like you want to) you could always ask what it feels like to feel female. If she comes out with things like “I always wanted to wear dresses / makeup, etc” then you have a gender critical argument right there.

But mostly I’d keep quiet unless she does something to piss you off.

You don't have to signal how strongly you feel about a social issue by being a dick to individuals, especially ones you're close to and care about!

But the OP's concerns are the other way around. So I'd say this: you don't have to tell the OP it's okay if a relative is being dickish to her just because you support a social issue!

We wouldn't tell any OP to suck it up on any other issue causing tension in a familial relationship.

Sorry iPad battery was running down, on that last post. Can I point out that I mean the those who identify as transgender, not transsexuals, regarding calling themselves lesbian.

Where have I suggested behaving badly towards a trans person, NunoGoncalves? Talking about the OP being able to draw the line in accepting their relative’s fantasy that they’re a woman? She has already been told she gets no say, but I’m glad you don’t agree with those posters, so actually you aren’t actually of the belief that people can change sex. I’m talking to those that say a person can think themselves into being the other sex.

If your relative announced that they was in fact black, or an otter, or a tree, would you nod along and agree that they had been born in the wrong body?

Because if it were me I’d have to be honest and say “I know that’s how you feel and I sympathise but I’m sorry - I can’t agree that you are in reality that thing because it is demonstrably not true.”

I honestly can’t see how pretending something and going along with someone’s delusion is being kind.

How is it causing tension though?
It's OP with the problem and issue towards her transitioning, not exactly her family members fault someone doesn't accept who she is.

No because nobody is a tree.
Bizarre

When it comes to the transgender issue I personally find it a bit contradictory and confusing. They are assigned male at birth but the gender they are born is different and in their mind they have always been women, how is gender a social construct. Am I missing something?

No because nobody is a tree.

Don’t you dare mistimber me.

OP: this is what you need to do. Forget all things transgender. Ask yourself:

a) Am I behaving reasonably towards my relative, with love and respect for their views and needs?

b) Is my relative behaving reasonably towards me, with love and respect for my views and needs?

If the answer to both those questions is yes, you have no problem.

If you think the answer to a) is that you could do better: do better. You have no problem.

If you think the answer to a) is that they could do better: ask them to do better. If they try, you have no problem. If they won't try, you have a problem. Then you'll have to make a decision.

They are assigned male at birth but the gender they are born is different and in their mind they have always been women, how is gender a social construct. Am I missing something?
It’s more that sex is observed at birth but they feel they belong to the opposite sex.
Gender is a social construct (eg dresses, makeup for girls).