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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there seems no depth to which remainers...

237 replies

Dana28 · 07/06/2019 18:23

Will not stoop in persecuting Brexiteers. Childish namecalling 'thick', 'racist' 'gammon', and now the vexatious private prosecution against Boris Johnson which was quashed before it even got to court.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 08/06/2019 20:20

How on earth do you expect anyone to be neutral on Brexit!

I expect most people thought Pascal Lamy, former Director General of the WTO was neutral on Brexit - including me until tonight.

longwayoff · 08/06/2019 20:26

Switzerland!GrinGrinGrin dont they speak French there? I suppose their neutrality's not in doubt though.

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 20:34

However, he's not exactly neutral

And how does Liam Fox match up to your standards, given that he is conducting talks in secret with the US and his right wing Atlantic Bridge “charity” history?

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 20:42

Have we signed a continuity trading deal with any major trade partner?

Yes, Switzerland - our 7th biggest trading partner

Err, not quite.

The roll-over is only “full” during the transition in the UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement because the Swiss have agreed to treat the UK as if it were an EU member. With “no deal” or beyond the transition, the roll-over is partial at best.

So no WA - no roll over.

Clavinova · 08/06/2019 20:46

Jump to search

ContinuityError
I confess - I don't know what you're referring to - conspiracy theory?

Margaret Thatcher set up The Atlantic Bridge Research and Education Scheme. Are they as scary as Momentum?

Clavinova · 08/06/2019 20:47

Jump to search
Random post - don't know where that came from.

EllebellyBeeblebrox · 08/06/2019 20:50

A lot of remainers are really filled with hate. They would rather destroy this country than let us have our freedom back again.

This is utter bullshit, and barely deserves a response. What freedoms will we be getting back exactly? The freedom for millions of people to stay well below the poverty line? The freedom to have businesses struggle and fail? The freedom to go short of vital medication? You can keep those freedoms thanks.
As for calling leavers thick and racist etc, I am a fervent remainer and would never claim that ALL leavers are thick and/or racist. Some are undoubtedly thick though, preferring to read and swallow total shite they've been fed in the media with no question, even after three years of fuck ups and the evidence that what was promised is unachievable.
Many are also racists. I live in Peterborough and some of the comments on the news sites after the recent by-election results have made disgusting reading. Brexit party supporters stating things like "saw the video of the results coming in, looked more like downtown Karachi than somewhere in England" and references to Peterborough will now carry on "reeking of curry", "paki loving remainer traitors" and so on. Thick and racist? Of course they fucking are. You can't expect people to put up and shut up when half this country are hell bent on fucking it up for everyone and their children for god knows how long to come.

Clavinova · 08/06/2019 20:56

ContinuityError
I've just looked on the Swiss government website;

"Switzerland wishes to ensure that its close relationship with the UK, based on existing mutual rights and obligations, will be maintained as far as possible after the UK leaves the EU and expanded where necessary"

"To this end, Switzerland has entered into a series of new agreements with the UK in relation to trade, migration, road and air transport and insurance."
www.eda.admin.ch/dea/en/home/verhandlungen-offene-themen/offene-themen/brexit.html

If the Swiss are happy - I'm happy.

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 21:07

clavinova

Conspiracy theory? Really?

You don’t remember Fox being sacked for allowing his dodgy friend Werrity to sit in on defence meetings without security clearance? The same Werrity that had been appointed Chief Exec of Atlantic Bridge by Fox? And all those dodgy funders, both here and on the US, busy funding climate change denial?

Nothing to see here ...

Cinammoncake · 08/06/2019 21:13

French people unable to be impartial eh? Who needs experts anyway

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 21:14

Clavinova

Try reading Peter Ungphakorn on the reality of the Swiss trade deal. It’s only a full roll over for the transition period if there is a WA, otherwise there are a number of limitations.

Of course, Ungphakorn is ex WTO is probably biased due to having a foreign name or something.

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 21:28

Oh and Fox seems to have forgotten that half our trade with Switzerland is services, which aren’t covered.

Oops.

Clavinova · 08/06/2019 21:37

ContinuityError
I had forgotten that Liam Fox had resigned as defence secretary in 2011. He obviously redeemed himself.Wink

busy funding climate change denial

The EU should get its own house in order; why doesn't it sort out this town in Italy? It's so polluted that children have to miss school for up to 5 days a month if the wind is blowing in the wrong way;

www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/ilva-steelworks-taranto/10490868

Clavinova · 08/06/2019 21:46

in the wrong direction

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 21:54

Nice deflection there, perhaps you could take that up with the Italian authorities as the relevant regulator under IPCC?

ContinuityError · 08/06/2019 21:57

IPPC (not IPCC) - still managing to mistype that after 20 years.

bellinisurge · 08/06/2019 22:26

So @Clavinova , do you agree with the op or are you too busy deflecting flak from their disgusting goady post just because they are presumably a Leaver. And Leavers can do no wrong.

BlueJag · 08/06/2019 23:12

@Unfinishedkitchen you have labour to thanks for austerity. They left us in debt.

BlueJag · 08/06/2019 23:18

@Hoppinggreen have you seen the shitshow they have going on in the EU?
Most countries are struggling financially.
Even Germany is in recession and that's the only rich relative.
We want to leave as we can see where things are going.
It's a dinosaur institution with no hope of change.
Boris was unfairly targeted as many others were behind the claim. Politicians lie to us all the time if these prosecutions go ahead we'll have no political parties left.

MoominMantra · 08/06/2019 23:20

Oh yes, that old chestnut. Austerity is all Labour's fault for leaving us in debt.

It's not at all to do with the fact that this is Tory parties brand of politics 🙄 silly me

Interesting that the Tories only heap austerity on the vulnerable and disabled. Which is why the House of Lords stopped the tax credit cuts because they felt it was not acceptable when they were also giving massive tax breaks to the rich.

BlueJag · 08/06/2019 23:32

@EllebellyBeeblebrox I'm sorry I forgot the EU is the land of milk and honey. They live an utopian paradise. I have many friends from Spain and they are on their knees. Some came here and found jobs. I just don't get it.
Things are soooooo hard in Europe what makes you think they are our saviours?

BlueJag · 08/06/2019 23:37

@MoominMantra old chestnut look at the budget and our horrendous deficit. I'm not that old or poor but I'm sick of paying really high taxes and under Labour we used to pay even more.
I'm not happy about paying so much as we are self employed but we understand it's necessary.
I'm not happy with many aspects of the Conservative policies but we are paying our debt. You are never going to get the perfect balance but I think the economy is at least stable.

MoominMantra · 08/06/2019 23:40

@BlueJag no that's what the Tories say to justify their nefarious crimes against disabled people.

They are despicable.

Whizbang · 09/06/2019 00:04

You are right OP. Ever since the referendum result the chosen insults remainers have used to describe brexiteers are “thick” and “racist”. There are plenty of examples on this very thread. Yes brexiteers have come up with their own insults, but that is not the topic of your post.

The irony makes me chuckle. The very act of throwing insults by either side truly demonstrates thickos who cannot win the other side over in debate hence resort to insults. However the striking use of the “thick” label flung by remainers is particularly patronising.

In truth nobody knows what the better long term outcome will be for the U.K., absolutely nobody. There is hyperbole and supposition on both sides. But nobody can know. We do not exist in a vacuum. Europe is lurching to the right, China and US are ramping up a trade war, climate change is forcing mass movements of populations. Nobody can truly say against this backdrop whether it will be better for the U.K. to leave or remain taking a 50 year view. Or even if there will be an EU in 50 years, or even 10.

Everyone is therefore debating about what they believe is the best course, coloured by their own subjective experiences. This is why the “thick” insult is so laughable. I think many remainers who use it truly believe it, and there lies the irony. Because those remainers flinging this insult and truly believing it are truly stupid on several levels. It shows a complete lack of empathy with the experience of others, an appalling lack of respect for their values and wishes and a sense of intellectual superiority that is thoroughly undeserved.

I may sound harsh but I can say here what I couldn’t say in real life. I live in Central London and I have been seconded onto a specialist Brexit project for the past year. I make a point not to discuss it socially because it is so divisive. But my god I have listened to some condescending bullshit from self congratulatory remainers who honestly think they know the right answer from their extremely narrow perspective. And slag off brexiteers at every opportunity.
Honestly it’s giving remainers a bad name.

So every poster on this thread gleefully throwing the “thick” label is displaying their ignorance and arrogance in my opinion.

And while I am at it, MN is known to be remain leaning echo chamber so all those repeating the same old cliche: “I haven’t read one benefit of Brexit”...what a crappy argument that is. As if an intelligent Brexiteer would bother putting the arguments here...the almost universal response would be “false news, thicko, racist”. It’s not worth the bother...most of the public are entrenched in their positions (partly due to mindless insults rather than rational debate being the order of the day on both sides). MN is a remain echo chamber where there are very few who would genuinely change their minds.

I have changed my mind since the original vote, and I may change it again. I voted remain in 2016. I am now very on the fence but if forced to vote tomorrow I would vote leave. My reasons are as follows:

  • I think both options have very many downsides. I wish the bloody referendum had never happened and we would have been better off remaining as we were with our extra privileges. But we can’t turn back time.
  • The division and anger in the country, and the perception that parliament is not following the will of the people is much more dangerous than whichever way Brexit falls. Brexit could bring short term shortages and economic downturn, but a break down of trust between parliament and the people is worse. It threatens rule of law, authority and ultimately the smooth running of society. Very dangerous ground.
  • The majority voted for Brexit. Yet we have a remainer parliament who have from the start been v unenthusiastic. They have not negotiated from a stance of seizing opportunities that Brexit could offer but have concentrated their efforts on blocking or softening the outcome of the vote. This is appalling - it is a breach of their duty to represent their constituents and it squanders the opportunities that Brexit could bring.
  • ...and there are advantages to Brexit as well as disadvantages. Not that you’d know it because people seldom get past mud slinging, and none of our politicians in the main parties have championed this cause. So we’ve only heard about the disadvantages...to heavy industry for example. No-one has seriously championed the benefits...to the services industry for example. There are potential benefits that we could seek to capitalise on but this has not been publicly debated in a sensible fashion because we so quickly resort to insults. It is infuriating.
  • We must move forward. We can’t stay in a forever divided limbo arguing about it and focusing on nothing else. We voted, it was ratified by a subsequent general election. We must now leave...anything else will be a complete break down of trust between people and politicians. You would be telling literally millions of people that their vote doesn’t count, and compounding this by telling them that they are thick and racist. That is not going to wash.

No doubt there are hackles rising all over mumsnet and the “thicko racist” brickbats will soon be flying in my direction. Go for it. I can assure you that I am neither of those things. But frankly anybody who resorts to demeaning the valid opinions of others using such moronic insults is not worthy of engaging in debate with and should be held in contempt.

Finally the “racist” label that is also flung with gay abandon at Brexiteers is a silencing mechanism. It has been used throughout Europe over the past decade to silence debate. The reaction is clear for all to see...the rise of the far right across the continent. When any sensible discussion of the impact of immigration is silenced by hysterical shrieks of “racist” then voters are driven to extreme parties with extreme views. Hence the rise of the far right...in France, Italy, Germany, the U.K. Truly appalling, racist parties that are attracting voters in droves because all the mainstream parties shout “racist” if anyone so much as raises a concern. Multiculturalism is the only way forward in our society but the way to achieve it is through transparency and open debate, not by silencing voices of concern.

In conclusion, I think you are right OP and (outside of MN) people are generally seeing through the “stupid, racist” insults. It’s a sign of someone whose ego and misplaced sense of intellectual superiority eclipses their knowledge.

bellinisurge · 09/06/2019 08:21

But No Dealers are thick and get into bed with racists. Notice I said No Dealers. Why should I pander to their lunacy? Why should I enable the cruel consequences of No Deal?
In short, why should I be naice about anyone dumb enough to want No Deal?

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