to be really concerned about how much DS LIES?

[Insignificant0ther]

I have a 9 year old son. We have a stable and good home life - we live with my partner - who he adores - in my large lovely house. We both work, but split the school runs between us (80% me, 20% DP) so we spend a lot of time with him. He has friends round regularly, and we do nice things together on the weekends. He has a good relationship with his dad, who he stays with every other weekend. We have never fallen out or badmouthed each other in front of him - we are very good friends, the relationship just didn't work out.

DS is a consistent, absolutely infuriating liar. I don't know why or when it started - there's been no obvious trigger as far as I can tell. I'm a pretty chilled mum - but lies really get my goat and there are dozens a day and I just don't know what to do any more.

For example today so far:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.'
'What flavour was it?'
(silence)
'Hey, what flavour did you have?'
(silence and a whinge)
'Did you have a yoghurt?'
'NO! I DIDN'T! THERE!'
'Okay. Well why did you lie about it?'
(aggressive noise and storms off)

---

Me: 'Did you put your washing away?'
Him: 'Yes'
Me: 'You hung your tshirts up and put your uniform away neatly?'
Him: 'YES.'
Me: 'So should I check?'
Him: 'Ugh god NO I SAID I DID IT!'
I just found it all screwed up and stuffed in his pillowcase.

-

Him: I ate all my lunch.
Me: All of it?
Him: Yes.
Me: Go get your lunchbox then so we can clean it out ready for tomorrow.
Him: (starts to whine)
Me: 'Ooh that doesn't sound good, what did you leave?'
Him: 'Nothing'
Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'
Him: 'I don't remember'
Me: (silence)
He goes to get his lunchbox and there are his sandwiches there. I ask him - without making a big deal of it - to sit at the table while I prep dinner and eat his sandwiches because he just said he was hungry. He whinges and says he hates ham and cucumber (its his fave). I turn my back for two seconds and he has STUFFED THEM IN THE CUTLERY DRAWER, hopped down and said barefaced grinning that he's eaten his sandwiches!!!

These are really trivial examples, he also tells much bigger lies as well. He lies several times a day about brushing his teeth, to which I now have to stand and brush mine with him twice a day to make sure he does them. He lies about having a shower, literally pats some water on his head and tantrums when I call him out on it. He lies about losing things - has taken expensive toys to school and lost them then lied about it, and I've had a call from his teacher saying she has them. He lies about being sick, pretends he's thrown up in his bed and then when I look, obviously there's nothing there. He lies about being 'the best' in his class at running/reading/anything, and then when I get the year end reports its all obviously bollocks. Concerningly, when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)

He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.

There are so many examples but typically my mind has gone pretty blank here, but you get the idea.

I know what some of you will be thinking, so I'll attempt to alleviate some of it here.

1. He gets a LOT of attention. As mentioned before, I deliberately jigged my working hours so I can do the school runs, and when we get home from school we hang out, drawing, making things, watching telly, going for walks, playing in the garden, he gets more one on one time than any other kid I know with a working parent.

1. I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to, but now I just brush them off with a casual 'well that was a lie' or depending what it is, give him the opportunity to change his story/tell the truth - which he sometimes does, sometimes adamantly sticks to the bullshit.

1. I know all kids lie, but every other sentence he says is untrue and it is literally exhausting me to have to permanently manage my irritation, call it out, try to get to the bottom of it all all the time. It's so tiring and confusing.

1. I'm a really black and white honest person. I've never role modelled lies or keeping secrets to him - I'm totally upfront about the fact that we don't keep secrets and we don't tell untruths, and I always have been.

1. I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him.

I've tried taking his electronics away for a day per lie, but it got to 2 weeks in one day alone, which is just futile. I've tried giving him household chores to do as penance (small things, but he doesn't enjoy them, so it's something...)

I'm kind of at the end of my tether. It's embarrassing for a start, but also just exhausting. And really demoralising as a parent that he disrespects me so much that he lies to me every hour of the day about every tiny trivial thing.

What on earth can I do that I haven't tried already, please?

I have no idea but I'm following with genuine interest as my daughter does exactly the same- including aggressive grunts and "stropping" about.

We have tried so much (ignoring it, making a game of it, making a big deal of it) but I honestly can't trust a word she says.

I've no advice I'm afraid but I had a friend like this at school, she would lie constantly about everything and anything from really silly little things to big things. I never knew why.

What about rather on focussing in punishing him for lying, reward for telling the truth? Maybe now because of this issue he has a ban on say his iPad. Every time he tells the truth (when you think he would lie) he gets 10 minutes on it. Or if you get to the end of the day and there are no lies then he gets an hour in the iPad?

What happens if you lie to him? I wonder how he would react if you just did the same back?
I’ve no idea if it would work, but I get infuriated with my younger DD at times for different things and I try to model the appropriate behaviour but occasionally I’ll just mimic hers and that has more impact on her understanding (she’s nearly 8) and very different from my older child.

I've worked with a few people who had a tenuous grip on reality. It's so frustrating.

I love the idea of you casually saying 'no school tomorrow, we're going to Disney' and then revealing 5 minutes later it was a lie. I don't think it would be effective but there's probably a good lesson in there somewhere!

Sounds like attention seeking,
I like the idea of playing him at his game.
I’ve cooled your favorite for tea, but don’t, ask him how he feels. Stirring emotions may help him realise how he makes you feel.

Cooked not cooled

Could you try believing him and letting him take the consequences? It wouldn't work all the time, but from your examples:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.' / ' I ate all my lunch.'
-> 'That's good, darling.'

Then later, when he complains he's hungry:
-> 'But you can't be hungry, darling, you had a yoghurt earlier / you ate all your lunch, you'll just have to wait for supper.'

And with regards to the clothes, you discover it later and tell him he can't go on his iPad until he's put them all away (and turn a blind eye to the creases).

If he faces no consequences for his behaviour, how is that possibly going to help in any way? In his mind, his lies are acceptable.

This sounds very difficult, you could give him an opportunity to tell the truth or say there was going to be a bigger punishment if he was lying.
Ask him why he is lying, if he strops off follow him and saying why are you lying, why did you say that, are you a liar?

If he faces no consequences for his behaviour, how is that possibly going to help in any way? In his mind, his lies are acceptable.
THIS!

I think you're too calm/accepting of this.

This is a tricky one, I'm honestly not sure what to suggest. I'm only posting because I recognise that I used to do this quite a lot.

I think my mother used to mostly file it under 'this phase will pass' maybe she did care but just didn't want to show it so I didn't get rewarded. I remember her saying 'that's nice dear' and a lot of 'bring me your lunchbox'.

Of course, I learnt to empty my lunchbox before bringing it home. Not sure what she did about that.

"he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)"

I do know that my mother would have insisted on holding my hand all the time we were out if I had tried this one.

Chores shouldn't be penance in that everybody in a home should contribute to helping a house run well. Thats family life. Maybe get him involved in day to day things together more? Like cooking dinner together. Give him things to keep him occupied and proud off.
Also if there are no consequences to bad behaviour of course he's going to keep doing it. It doesn't have to be a big deal when dealing with it but equally he cannot keep getting away with it.

I always came down super hard on lies when DD was little. It worked. I can’t abide a liar.

I think most of this is just exaggerated normal. I’d try getting silly with it. So if he says he ate all his lunch. I’d reply deadpan “Man, I’m full too. I hate a horse with chips for lunch. It was massive”. Just to show him a) you know he is lying and b) it’s daft!

I don't know what to say except that I would consider your three 'really trivial examples' to not be trivial AT ALL. I would be really disturbed by that - it is as if lying is just totally normal conversational activity to him. There is no reality there, no honesty in normal conversation. It's worse, I would say, than lying FOR something - to avoid a row or to get ahead in some way.

I think I would go back to the therapist... but for myself, go myself, first, in order to get a better understanding. Maybe take him later, but you know what is happening, how much he lies and the context of the lies - maybe if you were to go and see someone and outline roughly what you've said here, they may be able to start to give you some things to think about - why he may be doing it, how to approach him so the message gets through, how to respond and hopefully how to start sorting it out.

That aside, there do need to be consequences. And if the lies are all-encompassing then so are the consequences. If he loses his electronics until a day can go by without a lie, and then loses them again as soon as he lies again, so be it. Lies are serious. This kind of thinking is a serious issue, or it will be if it's not dealt with.

I'm afraid I have no advice, only sympathy. I've had a few friends like this and a couple of "boyfriends" (in inverted comments as how the hell do you tell if someone is your boyfriend if they lie to you about everything all the time?).

It's exhausting and infuriating.

My sister was a liar as a child. I am quite a bit older than her & I remember speaking to my mother about it as her lies were being believed. My mother chose to ignore them. My sister is in her 30s now and still a compulsive liar. If you can try to stop this now.

People that lie think that they are clever and the listener is stupid. It’s a game to show they can tell even the worst lie and be believed.

I’ve had this issue with my stepson and started to say ‘you’re the worst liar ever, please don’t take up poker’ when he told a lie.

My Dd was exactly the same- eventually grew out of it when we gave up responding to it. Again- much loved and lots of attention, just a phase. Some of my friends said they went through the same at that age. My Dd is now a much more truthful 12 year old!
Only thing I can advise is to try and ignore the lies and still treat him the same.

I think such constant lying in lots of situations, and to lots of different people is a cause for concern. Especially as he's 9. He's going to be in senior school in just over 2 years.

He's old enough to be told his lies aren't amusing, or acceptable.

Lying can be a sign of trauma or having adults react badly to truth telling in the past. Might not be relevant to your situation of course.

Most of the examples you’ve given are about food or self care. Is that a pattern or just the ones that have sprung to mind?

I think you need to consider age appropriate responsibilities and rewards. A 9 year old does not need to hold your hand to cross the road. A 9 year old does need a few household chores that can help them maybe earn a little pocket money if they're done to a good standard. Rather than picking up on each little thing, try a clear daily routine eg everyday after school I'm trusting you to put your lunchbox in the sink, get yourself a snack and do your homework before dinner. There is the potential to become hyper critical, querying everything he does because he's probably lying but these are not big responsibilities and they are things he needs to learn.

You need to tell him that now he is older you need to be able to trust him so from now on the sanction for lying will be xxxx and then stick to it. To set a sanction like taking the iPad away and then fail to follow through with it because he lies too much is just ridiculous. Decide on it and be consistent.

Despite what you say lying is undoubtedly getting him attention as the conversations you’ve posted show. When you doubt his truthfulness don’t continue to question him, just check on it in silence. If he’s told the truth praise him and make a fuss of him. If he has lied tell him firmly to correct it and don’t engage further until it’s done.

Finally, reward him for honesty. Praise him every time he is truthful. Set up a star chart - if he can go a whole day (or morning or evening or Whatever) without lying give him a star. When he gets 5 he gets a treat. If he gets 10 - another treat. Don’t be soft and give him the treats anyway. If he reaches the giddy heights of 25 or 30 stars he has ‘proved he is an honest boy’ and the treat and family celebration should be stupendous.

And don’t kid yourself that you have modelled perfect honesty. We all lie every day in tiny harmless ways,(that colour looks great on you, of course it’s not a problem that your DC was sick on the carpet, oh I’m so sorry I can’t come, I was really looking forward to seeing your spark plug collection) it’s part of rubbing along smoothly in a crowded society. It can be hard for children to grasp what are harmless, acceptable lies and which ones matter more.

Sounds like a really tricky situation. Especially when he has been to a professional therapist and she has been flummoxed!
Firstly, I would say try not to think of his behaviour as disrespectful to you. Of course that will feel demoralising and, so hard as it might be, try not to take it personally! He will probably pick up on you feeling demoralised, disrespected etc. and that might just be a trigger that (annoyingly) urges him to continue.

How about also setting up a family meeting where he is given space to say what he likes and doesn't like about lying, maybe thinks about why it might or might not be a good idea (let him come up with stuff...and only prompt if really really necessary, and try not to be too agenda'd) and after he has had his say you could come up with why you think lying can be really difficult for you to hear.
Then you could try writing up an agreement with things that don't matter (making up exciting stories, maybe farfetched things that happened at lunchtime etc.) and one thing that he will try to be truthful about (maybe the thing that is most difficult for you, or potentially dangerous). Then there can be a reward agreed by both of you if he can achieve this for a week, and a consequence preferably thought up by him.
Finally, how about trying a child psychologist/different therapist?
Good luck..