to be really concerned about how much DS LIES?

[Insignificant0ther]

I have a 9 year old son. We have a stable and good home life - we live with my partner - who he adores - in my large lovely house. We both work, but split the school runs between us (80% me, 20% DP) so we spend a lot of time with him. He has friends round regularly, and we do nice things together on the weekends. He has a good relationship with his dad, who he stays with every other weekend. We have never fallen out or badmouthed each other in front of him - we are very good friends, the relationship just didn't work out.

DS is a consistent, absolutely infuriating liar. I don't know why or when it started - there's been no obvious trigger as far as I can tell. I'm a pretty chilled mum - but lies really get my goat and there are dozens a day and I just don't know what to do any more.

For example today so far:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.'
'What flavour was it?'
(silence)
'Hey, what flavour did you have?'
(silence and a whinge)
'Did you have a yoghurt?'
'NO! I DIDN'T! THERE!'
'Okay. Well why did you lie about it?'
(aggressive noise and storms off)

---

Me: 'Did you put your washing away?'
Him: 'Yes'
Me: 'You hung your tshirts up and put your uniform away neatly?'
Him: 'YES.'
Me: 'So should I check?'
Him: 'Ugh god NO I SAID I DID IT!'
I just found it all screwed up and stuffed in his pillowcase.

-

Him: I ate all my lunch.
Me: All of it?
Him: Yes.
Me: Go get your lunchbox then so we can clean it out ready for tomorrow.
Him: (starts to whine)
Me: 'Ooh that doesn't sound good, what did you leave?'
Him: 'Nothing'
Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'
Him: 'I don't remember'
Me: (silence)
He goes to get his lunchbox and there are his sandwiches there. I ask him - without making a big deal of it - to sit at the table while I prep dinner and eat his sandwiches because he just said he was hungry. He whinges and says he hates ham and cucumber (its his fave). I turn my back for two seconds and he has STUFFED THEM IN THE CUTLERY DRAWER, hopped down and said barefaced grinning that he's eaten his sandwiches!!!

These are really trivial examples, he also tells much bigger lies as well. He lies several times a day about brushing his teeth, to which I now have to stand and brush mine with him twice a day to make sure he does them. He lies about having a shower, literally pats some water on his head and tantrums when I call him out on it. He lies about losing things - has taken expensive toys to school and lost them then lied about it, and I've had a call from his teacher saying she has them. He lies about being sick, pretends he's thrown up in his bed and then when I look, obviously there's nothing there. He lies about being 'the best' in his class at running/reading/anything, and then when I get the year end reports its all obviously bollocks. Concerningly, when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)

He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.

There are so many examples but typically my mind has gone pretty blank here, but you get the idea.

I know what some of you will be thinking, so I'll attempt to alleviate some of it here.

1. He gets a LOT of attention. As mentioned before, I deliberately jigged my working hours so I can do the school runs, and when we get home from school we hang out, drawing, making things, watching telly, going for walks, playing in the garden, he gets more one on one time than any other kid I know with a working parent.

1. I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to, but now I just brush them off with a casual 'well that was a lie' or depending what it is, give him the opportunity to change his story/tell the truth - which he sometimes does, sometimes adamantly sticks to the bullshit.

1. I know all kids lie, but every other sentence he says is untrue and it is literally exhausting me to have to permanently manage my irritation, call it out, try to get to the bottom of it all all the time. It's so tiring and confusing.

1. I'm a really black and white honest person. I've never role modelled lies or keeping secrets to him - I'm totally upfront about the fact that we don't keep secrets and we don't tell untruths, and I always have been.

1. I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him.

I've tried taking his electronics away for a day per lie, but it got to 2 weeks in one day alone, which is just futile. I've tried giving him household chores to do as penance (small things, but he doesn't enjoy them, so it's something...)

I'm kind of at the end of my tether. It's embarrassing for a start, but also just exhausting. And really demoralising as a parent that he disrespects me so much that he lies to me every hour of the day about every tiny trivial thing.

What on earth can I do that I haven't tried already, please?

Re the hand holding - can you say, well we’ll have to use baby reins on you then if you won’t hold my hand?

I used to do this. I never really understood it at the time but looking back there were many reasons. I would hazard a very strong guess the break up of your relationship is behind it.

Can you try and remember how long he's been like this?

What conversations did you have with him about the situation when you were taking him to a therapist?

I used to not give mine the opportunity to lie hen he was in that stage. Forget all the questions! Instead of have you cleaned your room: Please clean your room. Then look in room, if room isn’t cleaned say I asked you to clean your room, please do it now. Get his lunchbox and open it up. Say hey can you help me clean this out. What do you want for tomorrow? Pitch the bad stuff and give him less the next time. Maybe after a few days of questioning he’ll stop giving you the answers he thinks you want but aren’t true.

My best friend always did this ahen we where younger, and still does it now (although not as bad, but still very frustrating to listen to). As far as i can gather with my BF it is to do with attention seeking. Its like she believes her own lies now. I love her and her lies are not hurting, but more silly and pointless. I wonder if he has that much attention of you, your DP and his DF that he just constantly has to crave even more attention. Maybe stop giving him so much attention? God that sounds truelly awful, i dont mean ignore him.. but just a bit less attention to see if that works? x

I echo the poster that said the lies seem to be mainly about food and self care. That's definitely worth a bit more brain time and exploration.

Back off from policing the small stuff that doesn't matter. You don't need to know if he ate all his meal, let him find out the consequenses of lying and being hungry.
You really don't need to know what flavour yoghurt he ate. Or if he ate one at all. He has access to food and wont let himself starve.

''He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.''

Who is bawling you out? If you are texting photos of food to another adult he is controlling both of you.
Would you consider family therapy? You need a more experienced therapist than before.

I don't have any huge advice but just wanted to say that children (and adults actually) lie an enormous amount. Far more than anyone imagines. Some children lie non stop so it's completely normal. Look at how many anecdotes are on this thread about compulsive liars.

The natural consequence of lying is loss of trust. So I would make this consequence as obvious as possible to him. Disbelieve everything he says for a day or a weekend, and act as if it's the opposite of what he said, unless you've checked with someone else. He's plenty old enough to get the message that honesty is actually pretty important in being able to function as a family.

Are you actually asking him if he's telling the truth or lying each time.
I'd start not believing him when you know he's being truthful, when he gets angry explain that you can't trust him anymore.
I'd move onto explaining that he's too big for this baby game of not telling the truth, playing games. Explain it's lying and it's stopping.
He earns x amount of pocket money a day by being truthful. Start of by giving him a chance to correct himself then start giving him a good look when you ask a question.

I wonder if Family Therapy would help? That way the therapist observes the lie, with you confirming it is a lie, and can explore it from there.

Kids do lie, for many reasons. Some seem normal development, others less so. (www.goodtherapy.org/blog/why-do-children-lie-normal-compulsive-pathological-lying-in-kids-0107197)

Does he lie to his dad? How does dad deal with it (and how does he feel about it)?

Does he lie to adults at school? If not, why not?

He sounds like a normal kid! Every kid lies like this at some point just to shut the parents up. I think i would not sweat over the little white lies, but made sure he knows liars always get caught out. I think your looking too much into this tbh.

To the poster who said it's the breakup of mine and DFs relationship - DS was a baby and has no recollection of anything being any way other than how they are now. We have worked very hard to make sure our parenting is in sync, we are always popping round each others houses, we talk every day, we really are the best of friends and DS is completely balanced about it. So it's not that.

The food/self care examples were the only ones I could think of that wouldn't be potentially outing - the lies span a lot of different areas, these were just everyday ones that wouldn't potentially identify us to people who know us irl.

He holds my hand to cross the road because he has a habit of darting out and several times has almost come a cropper. I have no doubt that that's for attention but until it stops,he holds my hand.

I've tried disbelieving everything he says and he gets so, so, so furiously ANGRY with me it frightens me how much rage such a little boy can have. I daren't try it again because it takes so long to calm him down and he breaks things in his fury.

Also re the taking the tablet away, I did actually confiscate it for those two weeks! But realised it's an unsustainable long term punishment as it would just build up and up and up to the point where he would possibly not ever earn it back and thereby have no incentive to improve his behaviour.

And finally to the poster who said chores shouldn't be penance - I do make sure all members of the household contribute to chores with no expectations of a reward for it, these penance ones are extra and a way of making up for disrespectful behaviour.

Since I posted, my DP went and had a chat with him at bedtime, I sat quietly and listened outside the door. DP asked him if he had lied at all today and he said 'no not once'. He then got angry when DP repeated some of his lies to him and shouted and screamed but refused to admit that he had lied.

I am genuinely concerned that this is a really big problem and I don't know how to deal with it. I'm really upset by it all, I've done my best for him and he's so rude and mouthy and angry with me - I don't understand.

@xmas2020 I've worked with dozens of children and I have never known one who lies as easily as breathing. There's the one-upmanship kids, the exaggeration, the Billy big bollocks, but I've never come across one who lies with every other breath they take.

He knows you’re unhappy with lies

If you’re a chill mum and children need clear lines to push and cross, maybe he’s responding by pushing this one?

Probably unrelated but I find that parents that try to be friends (and middle class/more wealthy parents) don’t allow their children to fight them on issues when they just need to vent some emotion and feel confined safely in the world. I’ve witnessed these rich kids taking hardcore drugs and disrespecting their parents and themselves regularly.

As I said, probably unrelated

@mummoomoocow

We aren't wealthy or middle class, sorry. And I'm not his friend, I'm his mother. My friends with kids frequently tell me I'm the strictest of all of us, but compared to my parents I think I'm quite chilled out!!

He’s lying over trivial things because you’re making mountains out of molehills by questioning him everytime. Next time he lies about eating his yoghurt or putting his shirts away, just accept it. When he realises his lies don’t get him anywhere or give him attention, he’ll eventually have an incentive to stop.

So it’s not a parenting issue, maybe he’s responding to emotional/mental anguish?

I think it sounds like you ask him a lot of questions, OP. He might feel a bit hemmed in? Holding his hand to cross the road seems OTT at 9.

However, what I would do about it - apart from easing up a bit - is to sit him down, explain that I am unhappy about him telling me lies so often, and explain that there will be consequences from now on, because I need and expect him to be truthful.

@teddybear45 the mountains out of molehills came after some pretty serious lies. It's been a bit of a vicious circle for a while. If I let the small ones go, he just gets worse unfortunately. I have tried. And no it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a yoghurt, what matters is the need to lie about it so comprehensively

I have no doubt that that's for attention but until it stops,he holds my hand.

Sorry - didn’t see this.

@herculepoirot2 I ask the questions to give him multiple opportunity to tell the truth. Id love to not have to do this massive dance to find out whether he's eaten properly or if there'll be a drama about finding his uniform in the morning, I really would...

Do you need to question him so much?
Ask him to put his lunchbox on the side after school. You'll see what he has eaten. When he has a chore tell him to do it and and say you'll be checking in 30 mins. Maybe give him the chance to build up rewards.
You know he lies about these things so to keep asking gives the opportunity for more lies.
Maybe work on his behaviour and ignore the pointless lies and see how that goes.

Insignificant0ther

I get it, but I am not sure it’s always completely necessary. If he hasn’t eaten, he will be hungry. He won’t starve before dinner. Just leave it? Tell him to bring his uniform to you rather than asking him what he has done with it? Fewer questions, more instructions.